ツ vs Current Brand

[j_patten]

My issue is with the yellow smiley face.

We are in agreement that a good image is simple, clean, elegant. The yellow smiley face is cluttered and chock full of occult references—it fails on all accounts.

Now to the smile question…
If you can think of a simpler representation of the word “grin,” I would support using that. My argument is that the simplest way to depict a grin is as a grin.

It’s a grin not because of what a grin means definitionally but because it’s the pictorial for the word that the currency shares. Obviously if you ask a bunch of people who speak different languages what “grin” means, they won’t know. That’s a silly way to characterize my point. Translate “grin” into a word in their language and they pick the grin, every single time. It’s also why the “g” doesn’t matter because a smile is universally meaningful, while the English word “grin” is not.

Definition of GRIN

There is no deeper meaning. Unlike your interpretation which says, “well people are apt to view it this way,” “we need to pick a symbol that projects (x) image.” I’ve seen you say this more blatantly elsewhere. In that forum thread you said it should be visually off putting, so as to only attract true cyber punks. It’s a currency for renegades, etc. etc. Everything you say is in some way a projection of how the image will be received or a judgment on what the right message we should send.*

You don’t get to decide who grin is intended for and say your symbol is the most neutral one. Every symbol is laden with meaning, so why not pick the simplest representation to express the idea?

Just because “grin” means “smile” doesn’t mean the project is supposed to be humorous or light-hearted. The point of a grin being a grin is that it resists further interpretation.

[j_patten]

@0xb100d

ᵹ

This looks almost identical to Tezos

@0xb100d

Plus it’s the symbol I used in the official unofficial grin book.

Your perspective isn’t more important than anyone else’s. That’s what I believe grin’s philosophy to be about. In 2030 the currency is just as fair to late adopters as today. Do you agree?

Go look at the Reddit thread I posted. You say, “everyone likes it this way,” and someone else says, “you don’t speak for everybody.” Your commentary on this subject betrays your sense of self-authority not only as a decision-maker but overseer of grin’s brand.

[grn]

ツ

ツ 123.456
₿ 123.456
$ 123.456
€ 123.456

ᵹ

ᵹ 123.456
₿ 123.456
$ 123.456
€ 123.456

↺

↺ 123.456
₿ 123.456
$ 123.456
€ 123.456

◡

◡ 123.456
₿ 123.456
$ 123.456
€ 123.456

[Neo]

@0xb100d

unfortunately GRIN does not mean smile in most languages as far as I know, so tying it to a smiley face is extremely arbitrary. already we’ve done it with the logo, I dont think it is necessary to make the currency symbol also tied directly to a smile.

Well, “Grin” means smile in English. It’s not like English is some niche langue, it’s the 2nd most spoken in the world. Non-english speakers will soon figure it out.

@0xb100d

I do think the point is to pick a simple, meaningless symbol that applies ONLY to grin currency. That way it is useful only as far as indicating the currency, and has no other connotation. From that perspective, a smiley face completely fails, as it is easily misunderstood, is used in other contexts for other things already, and has a very specific meaning that comes before the currency meaning. I think the possible interpretations should be as close to 1 as we can make it.

A smiley face is a common symbol that’s recognized globally, I’d also assume it’s most commonly associated with positive connotations. However, I’m not aware of a common currency that uses a smiley face as it’s symbol. So you can argue that a =) would only apply to ‘Grin currency’

@0xb100d

ᵹ means only one thing to me! Plus it’s the symbol I used in the official unofficial grin book.

ᵹ looks cool but means nothing to me.

[grn]

Attempting to create a symbol that:

• picks up ideas from the current logo
• uses the letter G because that’s what Grin starts with
• does not collide with any existing currency symbol, such as ₲ U+20B2 (8370) GUARANI SIGN
• does not re-purpose an existing symbol with already established meaning
• typographically works well with existing currency symbols

Edit: Unfortunately there seems to be no unicode symbol for a G with two dots that could serve as a replacement, but these are the closest looking ones that I could find:

Ḡ

Latin Capital Letter G with Macron U+1E20

ḡ

Latin Small Letter G with Macron U+1E21

Ġ

Latin Capital Letter G with Dot Above U+0120

ġ

Latin Small Letter G with Dot Above U+0121

[DuckAvenger]

Don’t remember if anyone has proposed something like that based on Euro.

[DuckAvenger]

Similar to how the the Euro sign is inspired by epsilon, what about the capital Gamma with 2 strokes?

Unlike the letter G, it has the advantage not to be associated only with modern western world. It is used worldwide through mathematics and had been so for milleniums, “regardless of borders, culture, skills”, just like what Grin is aiming at

It is recognizable as a currency sign such as $ € ¥ £

It is distinct from any existing currency signs

It is built from a recognizable existing character Γ and easy to use in handwriting

|t is possible to implement it in serif and sans-serif

It is possible to implement it in regular, italic, bold and bold italic

[MF_Grin]

ツ is the clear winner

[0xb100d]

@j_patten

Just because “grin” means “smile” doesn’t mean the project is supposed to be humorous or light-hearted. The point of a grin being a grin is that it resists further interpretation.

We agree then. The japanese smile symbol is too humorous and light hearted.

@j_patten

Translate “grin” into a word in their language and they pick the grin, every single time. It’s also why the “g” doesn’t matter because a smile is universally meaningful, while the English word “grin” is not.

You are all over the place here. We are never, under any circumstance, translating GRIN, the one and only name of the currency, into any other word in any other language. It is GRIN in japanese and GRIN in swahili… and that means that to most people it means next to nothing other than a cryptocurrency. Ideally they will never see the logo, it likely will never come up in any wallet, but they will see the symbol next to the currency, and it is important, as you say, that we make sure it is a symbol that means nothing other than GRIN (the cryptocurrency), so using a smile is very silly, as it has nothing whatsoever to do with GRIN cryptocurrency, but already has other connotations related to smiling (across language barriers). In your own words you thin the grin logo is not good, you are offering an almost identically problematic option.

The goal of the symbol is not to teach everyone the word for smile in english is GRIN… but you are somehow making that the number one goal of the symbol. I think it is confusing. I think the symbol should be practically anything else other than a smile.

@j_patten

Every symbol is laden with meaning, so why not pick the simplest representation to express the idea?

There are a number of options that are practically meaningless in every single language and so will mean only GRIN (cryptocurrency). Somehow you have settled on the japanese smiley symbol which is almost the only option already meaning something else first and primarily.

I think you are getting a bit worked up, your opinion is just one person’s, just like mine. I think your argument is flawed, and therefore I think your opinion is objectively worse than mine.

As I understand it you are saying “The current logo is smiley, not serious, bad and confusing, I think instead we should use this smiley!” A smiley which is practically just as not serious, just as bad, and confusing. Let’s not use a smile at all for anything at all, or at least use it for as little as possible. You have not provided a serious alternative answer to your own stated concern.

Grin means Gringotts Wizarding Bank. Do you have any ideas that more clearly express that?

[0xb100d]

Most important by far, I think, technically, is that the symbol render on any computer.

I’m realizing on my fresh linux build… my first choice for the symbol, and also the japanese smiley don’t render at all, which makes them both bad.

The only two from the top choices of our poll that work for me are:

ǥ

and

ɠ

So I think one of those should be the currency symbol (more important than the logo) and if ever enough people think the logo should change (though it almost entirely unimportant) we should base the logo on the currency symbol, which should be a widely accessible (and liked) one, which leaves us so far with just the two options above.

I have proposed a number of handsome logos based on this philosophy:

See more: Grin Logos for Community Consideration

The benefit of this it is just the courier font (on every single device I imagine) and the letter g-stroke. It is by far the simplest, most accessible, and prettiest (imo) of all of the options shared. As you can see I’ve also included some of the symbolic meaning at the bottom of the designs.

[grn]

Beam seems to claim the G with two horizontal strokes for their atomic unit Groth.

[MF_Grin]

ツ is not humorous or light-hearted to me, it’s inviting and will pique curiosity, looks great as well. Anyone can write with with 3 strokes of a pencil. The sloppy G looks overly complicated and ugly.

The Grin logo is a smiling face, I don’t see how ツ is inconsistent with that and don’t see any option mentioned in this thread being better.

[j_patten]

@0xb100d

We agree then. The japanese smile symbol is too humorous and light hearted.

Re-read what I’m saying. The point of a grin is not that it’s grinning. It’s that it conforms in the simplest way possible to the word of the currency. (For what it’s worth, you are the one who’s all over the place. You pushed for light-heartedness in the logo. This is, once again, evidence that trying to fit a narrative of Grin into the image isn’t timeless–it’s arbitrary and ill-fated to the project’s evolution.)

Now, look at this conversation in greater detail. You are essentially demonstrating what I was saying about pushing a singular narrative for the project (Grin is used for this, Grin is meant for these people, “everyone” feels the way that I do, etc.)

[j_patten]

I’ve been reading these forums since the beginning–only recently did I create a username–and followed the gitter also. I’m not a developer so I didn’t contribute on issues outside my understanding.

The Grin community has expressed reservations from the beginning about the logo. Some of the responses to this complaint showed disinterest in community involvement. (The notable part here is that there are “customers” to Grin. Is that what a non-developer is in the Grin community?)

People pointed out that the logo is too cartoonish–

And overly complex–

And unduly alienating–

The community also agreed to revisit the question at some point if issues arose–

So, to reiterate one more time, my argument is simply that

There is no such thing as a neutral representation of grin
The best way to depict the project is through the simplest means possible
Since the currency is grin, the simplest way to represent this through image is as a grin (without noisy occult references)

The goal should not to be to satisfy anyone, but to pick the simplest logo possible so that it benefits no party.
Make an argument as to why the current brand of this project at all reflects the ideas of equity, timelessness, simplicity, and community, more-so than a blank, colorless grin.
There is no simpler image to depict a grin than a grin, nothing more, nothing less ← that is my argument. What’s yours?

[emptykeg]

@grn

I took a second look at your logo today and I actually like it a lot. Here I drafted this logo quickly based on other cryptocurrency logos. To me something similar to this would look more serious and better suitable for a currency compared to what we have today.

[Neo]

I wrote this post a while back, but it’s kind of relevant to this discussion. I think the perspective of some people is that Grin is not ready yet for mainstream adoption and won’t be for a long time. So we’re not even trying to attract users yet, we’re trying to attract devs. Not saying this is the best approach, just pointing it out.

@Neo

Before adoption by ‘users’, we need to create a Grin ecosystem, which requires extensive development. This development needs to come from open source contributors ( or Maven’s): Academics, cryptographers, geeks, nerds, ideological college kids, hobbyist coders, cypherpunks, devs who quit corporate careers/ or are secretly working on the side. Grin’s rebellious, provocative, edgy looking logo is ideal for attracting these kinds of people.

IMO from a branding perspective one of the biggest drawcards of using ツ is that could create a seamless design between the currency symbol and logo

@brent

Since this text symbol is already being co-opted by grin ツ, I’d suggest growing on that and making a logo version that’s more fleshed out and ownable, then when you write it as this text-based version it also looks a lot like the full version.

[Neo]

Personally I dislike all these G’s . Much rather =) or ツ

[Neo-Geo]

Best G proposal so far IMO:

Also still like ツ very much. If we go with ツ, it’s probably best not being in a circle or square, or it looks like a head of a kid’s stick figure: ㋡

[FirsArgentum]

IMO the grinning smiley with the M W eyes is not fit for purpose at all - it was fine as a provisional, jokey, subversive logo when the project was getting off the ground but is past its usefulness now. I agree that using the ツ like this for the logo solves most of the problems folks have been voicing and it would mean that the currency symbol and the logo are connected. It could be used on a yellow background if folk want to preserve that element but may cause confusion with emoticons. An alternative colour combination might also be necessary for using on white backgrounds with the symbol in white (just not facebook blue) to demarcate it, which is a common enough problem with logotype.

Agree also in particular about the point that the ツ symbol reflecting an actual grin is more appropriate than a G which only has meaning in English in so far as it is short for grin. Symbols reflecting actual real things is how writing started for chrissakes cf. hieroglyphics!

[grn]

@FirsArgentum

G which only has meaning in English in so far as it is short for grin.

That would be true if grin had other names in other languages, but I think grin is universal.