What is the intended market/use-case of Grin?

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When you go to the sex shop or your drug dealer and you pay in cash only YOU and the SELLER know what happened. That’s why we use cash, and why people should use grin. Using PayPal or a credit card gives a third party some data (either explicit data or metadata depending) about your transaction.

You can currently spend grin on tmgox.com. The folks at cycle42 have an open source, self hosted payment gateway with ecommerce plugins. Or you could use self hosted grinbox to accomplish similar feats of verifiability.

Or, like cash, you simply get a receipt. Written by hand and delivererd via pigeon post.

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That graph isn’t in log when thats a chart that needs to be in log eye twitch

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here it is in log for the lumberjacks (@monkyyy)

Annual%20Emission%20rate%20vs%20Year%20_%20line%20chart%20made%20by%20Bobby_digital%20_%20plotly%20-%20logarithmic
Annual Emission rate vs Year _ line chart made by Bobby_digital _ plotly - logarithmic.jpg1429×639 94.8 KB

at year 20 grin @ 5%, Gold at 1.86294% and BTC at .79808%

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I stand corrected! Thanks.

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This is compared to Bitcoin w/o CT, right?

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@kargakis It’s normal Bitcoin transaction.
Confidential Transaction is bigger than that.

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Yes; I do not expect to see CT on the bitcoin main-chain,
but if added, then a typical 2 output tx would increase in size to nearly 2KB due to rangeproofs. In that case MW offers more than an order of magnitude long term storage savings. And no bandwidth savings.

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I’ve been thinking about this a lot recently, and it raised another question along the same lines. What’s the use case for any of the privacy coins if bitcoin adds features that allow bitcoin users to easily maintain their privacy?

So, I don’t really know much about the technical side of grin (I’m a slow learner, I’m getting there), but my gut (with the help of the comments here) tells me that the use cases have something to do with grin’s lightweight chain, and something having to do with how transactions are a bit different on grin. That little difference I noticed was drawn to my attention when I went to withdraw some grin from tradeogre, and instead of sending to an address to witdraw, I just downloaded a file which I’m supposed to then use the grin wallet to finalize. Like I said, I’m still learning, but it seems like there’s some fundamental difference in the way grin handles data and transactions that will suppliment bitcoin in some way. I think I’m on the right track, we’ll see.

That being said, it seems like grin’s use case is to be THE e-cash of the world. Thinking sort of abstractly I think of grin as an extension to bitcoin, something that allows for private transactions, no matter the cost of a satoshi. I think if we assume a fully bitcoinized world, then the grin project means devs today, taking a moral responsibilty to ensure future generations have the ability to transact without the need for middlemen or government arbitration.

It is easier for entities like governments to maintain control of their bitcoin savings throughout generations, because governments live longer than people. The odds of an accident happening to me, and me not being able to pass on my coins to my children are way too high, so those coins would be lost. So it seems like bitcoin will just get more and more scarce over time. I think this means that governments could slowly accumulate so much bitcoin, that there’s just not enough to go around anymore. Grin prevents that by adding a constant velocity of money. To me, that means the foresight of the grin developers is just incredible, and they’re making something great, it’s just a beautiful thing to me, so thank you for that. It’s very thoughtful of you to consider people 100 years from now, 1000 years from now. Y’all could have easily added some shady block reward funding shit in there, or giant block reward incentives for the first few months, or some premine, and made a killing, but you didn’t…that’s like, satoshi level morals. I want to buy you all gift baskets with mini-muffins chocolate and flowers. Anyway, I digress.

So now that that stream of consciousness is done, to paraphrase, if someone ask me what grin’s use case is, is like asking me what money’s use case is. Grin is just proper, bullshitless, e-cash.

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I think it’s impossible, it will make the Bitcoin price very high.
And even if most Bitcoin is hold by governments, there are so many altcoins, or create a new Bitcoin which have the same code of the original Bitcoin.

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Yeah, true, and there are so many altcoins, but not many that are bullshit-free like grin.

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Even if all Bitcoin are bought by government, people can fork a new Bitcoin which is also bullshit-free, with the same technology of the original Bitcoin. And don’t need to worry about backward compatibility, so many new technology can be applied, like schnorr signature, MAST, taproot, confidential transaction…

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I dunno man, I think it’s pretty hard to get a bullshit free coin off the ground these days. New coins are too easy to attack, and fork into oblivion.

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This problem can be fixed with new mining algorithm, like what Grin did.

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I don’t think bitcoin was bullshit free by my personal standards (on a protocol level), the only thing that made it bullshit freeish, is that satoshi never spent his coins (cashed out).

Edit: No, Actually, I take it back, I do think bitcoin was bullshit free, I think some people think it’s not for various reasons. On a side note, I would never have bought bitcoin had satoshi cashed out. Him dissappearing and not spending his coins was a huge selling point for me.

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People can emit both bullshit coins and bullshit-free coins.

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Oh I agree, they can, and are. It’s a beautiful thing. Glad to hear there’s always a fighting chance for freedom!

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That’s quite a relief. :slight_smile:

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Getting segwit was a herding cats task; hard privacy rivaling mw with LN already launched? Functionally impossible. Either LN would need to be preserved thru allot of tech and compromise or it would be broken, which is not something your going to get.

To me, that means the foresight of the grin developers is just incredible

I would strongly disagree; I don’t think they have the foggiest idea what they are doing economically.

That they are building good tech, is more about them being prideful in just the right way.

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Yeah I don’t think they’ll be doing miner activated soft forks any more. Bitcoin will still be hard to change, but that’s a good thing, but I don’t think it will be as big of a clusterfuck as the segwit upgrade was.

I wasn’t talking about the lightning network in particular, there are other things on the horizon, schnorr signatures, and taproot come to mind. The idea being a reduction in the number of hoops to jump through to maintain privacy to 1, or as few hoops as possible.

monkyyy, what specifically do you like about grin? What about grin gets you the most excited? Thanks.

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I wasn’t talking about the lightning network in particular,

I am, LN is the major project in this space; anything that slows it down is doomed to fail in my opinion. So bitcoin will not be getting privacy upgrades as they would necessarily be effecting it.

monkyyy, what specifically do you like about grin? What about grin gets you the most excited? Thanks.

MW combined with a new pow that isn’t asic-hating.

All the standard arguments for mw, plus one of my own, non-interactive transaction combining makes it possible for privacy increasing upgrades like dandelion, but potentially more complicated ones; without forks, without user software upgrades, but mere node upgrades; assuming there is a trasaction format that users don’t submit their transactions to nodes willynilly, but instead one of the parties takes to completed transaction and promises to handle it; for example you could see dark net markets running custom node software to mix coins at a very high level of security.

The agruments that real coins should have thier own asic’s are out there so I won’t go into to much depth, but this is massively important later; you don’t want hash rate attacks.

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