Good to know about BasicSwap.
It’s worth noting that Grin is already on Bisq, so we already have an order book experience for Grin and no one uses it. Trading GRIN - Bisq Wiki
With Serai, I was hoping for an alternative to the order book (liquidity pool), but it looks like that is not possible.
Basicswapdex is an atomic swap marketplace, atomic swaps don’t need escrow. Do you have any information you can link me to that talks about it having an escrow?
The escrow I mentioned was for the Particl project’s marketplace dapp, which is part of its desktop wallet. I’d prefer not to link to it as their coin is indistinguishable from a scam even affording their developers the extreme benefit of the doubt. While BSX is currently a standalone program, it was designed and intended to be integrated into Particl Desktop to function as the swap provider to the marketplace. That they never discuss this in promoting BasicSwap, and that you wouldn’t know it unless you dig through their comms or old documents, is further evidence of their team’s dishonesty imo.
I’ll just put it out there that I am not a fan of particl, I do not own any particl, I will not use particl.
Their plans to roll it into their particl client are of no consequence, the only thing that you could consider integration between the two is they both use the SMSG protocol (a fork of bitmessage which, from my topical exploration appears to be better) and so using either strengthens the SMSG network that they both rely on. That basicswap was designed with integration into a particl client in mind doesn’t affect it at all, there’s nothing dishonest about wanting to do that. My only concern with the Dex is if it were to rely on the particl network. It does not. If they were to ever try that, well, it’s free software and the Monero community is very vigilant.
My only concern with engaging in this discussion is that I’d like to see Grin succeed. Atomic swaps are the only way that some developers can ensure liquidity for a coin and not have to rely on the approval of some product manager or marketing director. And you go where the liquidity is, as of right now the largest aggregation of atomic swap implementations is basicswap, working an existing protocol to fit into it is the lowest effort, highest potential reward endeavor in this regard. It’s basically a no brainer, all the noise is a distraction, either you want to see Grin succeed or you don’t, and no offense to you but basically every thread I’ve read on this forum, conversations about anything and everything get derailed with minutae and wind up petering out and nothing of consequence winds up happening.
It doesn’t take a committee to build this stuff, only a motivated hacker with the right skill set. I’m not here to convince everybody, only hopefully to convince the person that will decide to do it, I wish that were me because I’d do it in a heartbeat if I had the expertise to do so. Imagine a Grin without any reliance on centralized exchanges, being one of the first coins to be available trustlessly, in the package that is carrying the lions share of the work and users of such technology. Not to be a prick but I don’t understand why we are even still sitting here talking about it.
My only concern with the Dex is if it were to rely on the particl network. It does not.
But it does, SMSG is run by the particld program. You can disable any coin in BSX except PART for this reason. If the developers were serious about BSX being autonomous and standalone, they would implement SMSG as a separate daemon. They were asked to do so as part of their recent Monero CCS request, and its noted at the very bottom of the milestones they’re claiming to hit. And they have a long history going back almost ten years of releasing roadmaps and promising features that they then reneg on after being funded for them.
All this said, I’ve used BSX myself, and I don’t oppose an effort to integrate GRIN there. I just think that history and reputation of development groups are key qualities to consider when reviewing the mid to long term viability of projects in this space.
Personally, I’d rather see the effort of a DEX integration go towards projects with better reputations, such as DCRDEX, Haveno, or Serai.
Youre talking about the CCS proposal from ofrnxmr? That’s partly what prompted me to come here and talk about this. He’s not a particl contributor as far as I’m aware and has a history of actually doing what he says he is going to do.
Fair point about long term viability, but I think that this goal is so important to the Monero community that they’re the deciding factor on that front, and if there were to be any shenanigans from particl the Monero community would fork it and pick it up themselves as they have done in the past. If the basicswap team crosses the Monero community they lose their position, basicswap goes where Monero goes at this point.
I like and do run Haveno as well myself, but it’s a peer to peer order book with escrow, something necessary for fiat exchanging but not necessary at all for cross chain exchange since atomic swaps exist and are possible. If escrow can be avoided it should be avoided. As far as decred and serai, I’m not excited about reliance on a third parry chain or coin, that’s a non starter for me. And built in governance, forget about it. Atomic swaps are the holy grail for person to person exchange of cryptocurrencies for cryptocurrencies and the fact that they’re possible makes them the bar as far as I’m concerned. Where to implement them? Wherever theyll be most useful. To me, an existing swap protocol that could be dropped into an existing client seems like the shortest path to victory, and a good low-ish effort to test the waters and see if investing work into more swap pairs will be worthwhile.
I’m not aware of his history not having involved myself in wownero in the past, and not interested in his character beyond pointing out that he chose to purposefully disrupt Monero communications channels with his own and his followers’ behavior while there were multiple active attacks against Monero on the exchange and transaction levels. That does not inspire confidence in me - if you burn your rep in a decentralized project, you can leave or you can rejoin under a new name. Choosing to stick around and attempt to brute force your way into getting funding at the detriment of the other participants addressing ongoing attacks is sus behavior.
if there were to be any shenanigans from particl the Monero community would fork it and pick it up themselves as they have done in the past.
They probably would, but this is not an easy task given the aforementioned code quality and the number of developers available, all of whom have been focused on fixing the attack vectors that were exploited in the spring. And given both ofrn and Particl’s histories, they would most likely leverage any opportunity they could to attack and sabotage the fork.
Atomic swaps are the holy grail for person to person exchange of cryptocurrencies for cryptocurrencies and the fact that they’re possible makes them the bar as far as I’m concerned. Where to implement them? Wherever theyll be most useful.
I whole heartedly agree with this, but with a slight caveat.
At this time, the most immediately useful thing for GRIN would actually be more CEX listings. DEXes are still very rudimentary at best, and in no shape for average users to rely on regularly. We currently have two exchanges, Gate and TradeOgre, and the former isn’t available to US residents, and the latter is a grey market that could be taken down at any time. And while basically all exchanges are shady as hell, fractionally reserving their most popular coins and only listing new coins if they get a big bag for free, there are one or two that are more reliable than the rest.
For this reason I think it’d be better for Grin in the short to mid term to get listed on say Kraken than it would on BSX. And while a DEX integration should obviously be the mid to long term goal, it’s not only going to require substantial dev work given Grin’s unique design, but also the specifics of that work will be determined by which DEX is targeted as they all have wildly different architectures. It would be a shame to sink significant resources into a BSX integration only to have BSX itself abandoned by the Particl devs just like they did to their previous coin ShadowCash.
I second this. As far as I understood any request to Kraken will be judged based on merits and could even succeed for a low liquidity project like Grin, simply because they value other metrics than pure short term economic gain. I only do not know if Kraken requires a central entity for contact, which Grin does not have as decentralised projects.
Sorry for digressing the topic of the post.
You can always give it a try
it’s … going to require substantial dev work given Grin’s unique design
There’s already an existing grin-btc atomic swap PoC. I understand it is work and not downplaying that.
It would be a shame to sink significant resources into a BSX integration only to have BSX itself abandoned by the Particl devs
Would it? You have to take risks somewhere. Going where Monero is going in this regard is a pretty good bet.
At this time, the most immediately useful thing for GRIN would actually be more CEX listings.
Besides the fact that that is not going to happen, CEXs require all sorts of shady things like giving them lots of money to get listings, it puts grin at the mercy of marketing directors and product managers, and it gives no guarantees whatsoever that the listings will still be there in a year. Is it really a better idea to invest real money into giving someone a kill switch on liquidity vs investing some work into making an existing protocol compatible with some software? This is not very forward thinking, you can permanently solve a problem or you can kick the can down the road and always have a stick hanging over your head.
I’m sorry but the idea that chasing CEX listings is a better idea than integrating an existing grin atomic swap into an existing suite of them is ridiculous. The fact that it is seriously considered speaks to the mismanagement of this community and it’s slow spiral into irrelevance from where it was, the most anticipated project for a year prior to launch. We have theoretically had atomic swaps for years, but nobody wants to work on them because there’s no way to become a rent seeking middleman. Some people started, they have their motivations, and we have, right now, a working multicoin suite of them available for users. The finish line is on this side of the horizon. A working atomic swap for grin means no more worrying about listings ever again. If you can’t see the value in that then hopefully someone else does, because if nobody does then I foresee what I view as a tragedy, the most exciting development in the cryptocurrency world amounting to nothing but a footnote.
Is it really a better idea to invest real money into giving someone a kill switch on liquidity vs investing some work into making an existing protocol compatible with some software?
I’m not talking about begging Binance, and Grin’s policy is to never pay for listings which I 100% support.
This is not very forward thinking, you can permanently solve a problem or you can kick the can down the road and always have a stick hanging over your head.
This is absolutist thinking, the world is not black-and-white. Short term solutions can be prioritized while determining the best longterm course of action. And a BSX integration is not exactly a solution, its userbase is very small, likely in the dozens maybe the hundreds. And it can hardly be said to be permanent given the development team’s multiple abandoned projects, hell their Desktop wallet has only had a couple public commits in the last year and they were for adding a button and tweaking the continuous integration.
The fact that it is seriously considered speaks to the mismanagement of this community and it’s slow spiral into irrelevance from where it was, the most anticipated project for a year prior to launch.
I’m but a single person, albeit with some strong opinions, but not any kind of manager of this community.
We have theoretically had atomic swaps for years, but nobody wants to work on them because there’s no way to become a rent seeking middleman.
The solution you’re proposing is developed by a group who embody the definition of rent-seeking middlemen. Just because its got some hype around it at this moment doesn’t make it a sound strategy. Hell, the Particl developers have repeatedly stated they will not work on the software they release unless they’re getting paid, and they’ve been so controlling and exploitative of that software that after nearly a decade of existence their community has failed to draw in new independent code or financial contributors and is very small even by cryptocurrency standards.
I’m going to leave the conversation here as I feel we’ve gone in circles for a bit, but once again atomic swaps are paramount in the long run, and I absolutely see the value of them in the long run.
What about Bisq? I keep mentioning this because the Grin community has all but forgotten that we are already implemented there. We just don’t use it.
I am planning on using Bisq, but getting everything set up to use it is proving to be a huge pain in the *ss (mainly due to Grin wallet issues I am finding).
Where does Grin used elsewhere?
From what I’ve seen so far, Bison Wallet looks really promising with little to no dependence on decred. It has privacy coins and I think grin would fit right in. Someone please dampen my expectations because i’m feeling quite excited by it.
