Suggestion: Make DEX - is Over

Yeah I’m sure it is. But still, I feel like even a good dex will still only attract about 5 enthusiasts as long as TO’s still around. TO is easy and liquid.


What is “TO”?

I would put a DEX in the wallet app. The biggest mistake of crypto is thinking that on/off ramps are some separate concern from transaction. They are very tightly coupled use cases.

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TO = Trade Ogre


This is a typical example of what I would think of as “extra features” for non core wallet Apps. E.g a wallet with focus on privacy, Nostr integration, perhaps another wallet with focusing on ease of use with exchange integration, yet another focusing on multi platform support etc. In any case, that is up to the wallet developers themselves. I realize that as CC we should support but not so much direct the direction of third party wallets. At least that is what I got from the feedback we got so far from developers like @i1skn and @davidtavarez.


A “core wallet” is bare bones. Basically nothing other than send and receive.

Other than that, the goal should be Venmo/Cashapp. To me, that is the baseline. Because that’s just what users expect. If we can’t match that UX, it will be perceived as sub-par


@trab We can reopen that discussion here. I do not know much about Venmo, the key is that you integrate messaging with (micro-)payments and an address book right? Or is there more to it. I would like to know a) exactly which components you think are needed to give a Venmo style user experience, b) whether is it compatible with interactive payments?
Would Nostr be suitable? I think @davidtavarez vision for Grin++ include integration with Nostr and ideally we match our ideas/vision with the vision of existing 3rd party wallet developers like @davidtavarez and @ardocrat. Actually also @i1skn was experiment with Nostr, unfortunately he does not want to work on Ironbelly anymore :cry:


I think a wallet that only supported slatepacks would be more user friendly and welcoming to beginners.

The tor address only presents confusion. First it’s confusing that there is an address, since grin doesn’t need addresses, then it’s confusing that it has an online/offline state implying that a grin wallet needs to be online which isn’t true, and finally it’s confusing when you use a tor address, about whether you’re communicating the transaction over tor or just using the address to encrypt the slatepack.

I think TO was correct to look at this system and say no, we’re not using that, we’re using plain slatepacks only. If I have that correct, idk I haven’t used TO in a while, do they use a tor address for a deposit transaction? I don’t recall that they do.

And further, I think offering the option to encrypt a step 1 slatepack creates confusion about whether there’s something insecure about it. Afaik the only interesting thing revealed in an unencrypted step 1 slatepack is the amount, as long as you don’t mind revealing the amount you can post your unencrypted step 1 slatepack to a public forum.

If I had a magic wand I would remake Ironbelly without address support, just slates.


I don’t understand the desire to use Nostr as a service for slatepack msgs communication. We have grinbox which can do the same specifically for grin, someone just need to run it, or we just want to use someone’s else infrastructure for free? But then our slatepacks can be filtered by whoever run nostr relay, so we would need to run our own relay, but that’s no difference as to run grinbox.

TO uses plain text slatepacks and that’s seems fine as it’s supposed to be shared with the exchange exclusively.


You answered your own question. The grin network can barely run its own primary protocol. Asking this community to additionally run its own messaging protocol on top of that is just cruel and unusual.

By adopting something like Nostr (I’m open to others btw. Browse Venmo/Cashapp product planning for some research on this) we can bootstrap and run on top of an existing network.

We also get exposure to the wider Nostr user base. Anyone with a Nostr pubkey can easily use the grin wallet. You get the wallet and any other Nostr functionality at the same time when you make a keypair.

  1. I think you’re underestimating how many Nostr nodes exist. There are a variety of ways that they monetize their nodes as well.
  2. Most Nostr nodes allow for encrypted DMs. They can’t filter on what they can’t see.
  3. It would be much easier to spin up a grin branded Nostr relay (even to fork it and add grin payment support) than to maintain a codebase for grinbox and a fleet of grinbox nodes (Which is another thing to distract developers’ already limited time)

I had great user experience back to the very old days with grinbox. So sad grinbox is no longer supported.


I want to avoid any centralized component =)


Whatever, the decisions made these years diminish the adoption of Grin rather than enlarge. I’d say the failure is mostly caused by lacking a convenient way to trade/use Grin.


Slatepacks? Before slatepacks that was definitely true.

After slatepacks, trading grin on TO is easy. Trading grin between users is easy. Using grin is hard, because nobody really adopted it on any marketplace, but I don’t think that’s because of slatepacks. TO implemented a slatepack interface successfully and a marketplace could as well.

Grin wasn’t adopted in use as a currency imo because people doubted its value due to the constant block reward. No transfer protocol can change that.