Recompensate Tradeogre

This is a strong argument against compensating TradeOgre with the donation funds: The donations are designated for Grin Development, not for compensating an exchange, no matter how important the exchange may be for the coin after all.

Also, it should probably still fall under a typical risk of an exchange that there is a need to roll back a supported blockchain to mitigate proven exploits. In fact, every entity involved in PoW-Blockchains (Users, Exchanges etc.) carries a certain risk of becoming a victim of a 51%-Attacks and lose a substantial amount of money.

For that matter there is certainly no obligation for anybody to compensate someone.

But still, i am wondering were Grin would be today without TO and even if Grin would be at all. The Exchange-List here speaks for itsself: Archived: Active Exchanges
The list of Exchanges that bailed out on Grin is painful to watch, there are only two “awesome” Exchanges left of which one of them as of now enforces a 10 Grin Withdrawal Fee (!) and left the community for months in the dark regarding if slatepacks would be supported at all. Great.

Also considering that the regulation-screws will get tighter on privacy coins it is not an unlikely outcome that Grin as a privacy coin might get delistet from all other exchanges that have to oblige to anti-money-laundering laws. Of course Its not set in stone and just a propability. But still you have to consider DEX being the only places in the future were Grin could be traded.

Bisq as a DEX did already delist Grin once due to the high number of tickets. Some Community Member got in touch with them months ago regarding a re-listing and nothing has happened in months.

So again: TO proved as a solid pillar for the project with great support (first in class exchange with slatepack-support), most importantly also: It provided support in times where the general outlook really began to look bleak (delistings, price-plummeting, fading miners, fading users).

If TO has suffered any damage from its enduring support to Grin, it should be compensated in some way, otherwise it may proof as a mistake for TO to support Grin in the past and the future.

So please lets make some initiative happen to show some support. When we’re done with TO, we can move on giving support to the Queen of England, Animal Shelters and maybe your local chess club.

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I do also agree not to use any internal GRIN funds for compensation.
We as the community need to step in here and help TO.

At the same time I did have a lot of discussions with some of the GRIN users telling me , we don’t want to compensate for any reasons .

But from a personal perspective and community perspective, which exchange is supporting GRIN at the moment with full deposit / withdraw and some liquidity on the Exchange ?

To my knowledge only TO.
(correct me if I am wrong, I would love to be corrected here)

Possible donation approach:

  • I could setup a TO donation page on https://grinnode.live/ where we can donate GRIN and BTC.
    Once we reach a critical point of 50K USD we send it over to TO with a big thank you for supporting GRIN.
  • We need some time setting this up to monitor balances and show them publicly.
  • We are not ready yet to release our newest development - GRIN payment proof - we are working hard to make it public soon. Where you can proof you did send a payment to another GRIN user publicly.

Publicity:

  • We could use this for some publicity, even its sad we only have one exchange at the moment supporting us fully.
  • Contact TO and say thank you from the GRIN community.

open questions:

  • Did any of the GRIN twitter handle contacted TO yet and got some contacts?
  • We can fully use PGP if they don’t want to talk in public you find our PGP keys here and get in contact with us for the transaction.
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what about if we compensate them from the fund to support them upgrading their Grin integration to support the Slatepack standard .

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I don’t think that we should be paying the exchanges to integrate grin. Exchanges always risk losing money, in some cases it’s not really their fault (such as this case), in some other cases it’s at least partially their fault (eg. 51% attack since they don’t have dynamic number of confirmations based on amounts). It’s unfortunate that tradeogre lost money due to the bug and it’s fine if community wants to donate, but i doubt it’s a good move to use grin’s funds to help them since if we do it here, we should also do it in the future. What if in 5 years 10 exchanges lose a lot more money? Tradeogre being the only exchange benefits them by itself since they get both respect and usage from this community. I wish them all the best and I believe they will recover from this loss. I believe it would be better if we could provide a way to notify exchanges when something weird is happening on the chain so that they could stop withdrawals/deposits in time if such thing ever happens again

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I think TO should be fully compensated from the Grin fund and only the Grin fund.
Some people claim that this is not what the fund is for, but I disagree:

https://grin.mw/fund

All donated funds will be used towards Grin’s development or promotion.

Compensating TO for a loss would not be development, of course, but I think it would help with Grin’s promotion, as it would send a clear signal of ownership and responsibility, which can help to build trust in the project.

Not compensating TO just doesn’t feel right to me. They are not a big bad exchange, but a small operation. Especially they are the only exchange that fully supported Grin during difficult times. The loss may have exceeded all the money that they made from Grin. They did everything right and still got hit with a loss that was a consequence of a chain of decisions that the dev team is responsible for.

I am against blaming the dev team and especially individuals for these decisions, because the software is experimental and totally new terrain and bugs happen in any codebase. Those who blame the devs probably couldn’t do it better themselves. In the end it needed to be decided in the way it was decided, but we need to acknowledge what was causing the events. As far as I can tell, there were these events:

  • The faulty code was implemented
  • It was approved during review and audit (while there was a parallel implementation that did not have this issue, so in theory this could have been easier to catch by comparing the implementations)
  • There was a decision to do a rollback with the known consequence that people could lose money

I also don’t think that every loss in the future needs to be compensated, just because it was done once. The council could offer 50K Grin to TO and clearly say that this is done for unique reasons under unique circumstances, as a sign of goodwill, ownership and acknowledgment of TO’s special role for Grin and never will be done again, because Grin has no income and therefore can take no general liability for potential losses.

If paid, the 50K Grin are of course lost money for the project, but they could serve as a reminder in the future during pushing new features and during reviews. Every wrong decision can cost people a lot of money.

If TO is not compensated, I can see them and others losing their enthusiasm for Grin and that is maybe a higher price to pay than taking 50K Grin from the fund, which is at the moment a portion of about 0.5%, so it does not seem to me as it would significantly hurt the project.

Maybe TO doesn’t even accept the offered money. In that case, it would be free promotion for Grin and TO (not free for TO though…).

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As far as I can tell, nobody was able to donate GRIN to the fund for a long time since the wallet is probably offline…

Maybe we should start by fixing this(!) before we even try to use the fund for compensations?

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Hehe, the 12th transaction in the list from 2019-10-03 (9,7 Grin) was by me :rofl:

But you are right; Devs get paid in Bitcoin, official Grin-Donation-Wallet seems to be offline so you most likely can only donate in Bitcoin…its like the creators are trying to say: “why would we want to use Grin if there is bitcoin?” Thinking about it this way, im starting to regret my 9,7 Grin donation :laughing:

So the Donation-Wallet should get back to a propper state, than a possible Donation-Wallet for TradeOgre

First of all. The only reason why people would vote for compensate is because they don’t have to pay it from their own pocket. It is always easier to judge sideways about someone else his money and what he or she should do with it.

community support: yes
Grin fund: no

besides that, everyone can scream what they want, but let’s see some proof maybe? Evidence would be nice to begin with. Otherwise everyone is free to open their grin claimable topic.

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This is also the problem with government officials having the power to spend funds, not to mention the massive natural incentive to spend the money of others for your own secret benefit.

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Imo in the end it would be more a promotion of an inflation bug we had than anything else.

That reminds me of the daohack which happened on eth where they’ve bailed out people. It was a wrong decision since you can’t 100% prevent bugs in the smart contract and you can’t do such thing for every bug which means there are some unknown requirements for when they do it (how much money is hacked and possibly who loses money). And they had such decision issues in the hacks that followed

So we have to keep it simple, no official support for TO, donations only.
Those who use TO are encourage to donate to help them out. Also, if you are a TO user who sold Grin and received BTC of which the Grin transaction was removed from chain, you can simply decide to be fair and send back the BTC to TO.
Also I agree with @siNix that some proof lf the loss would nice. Also, TO themselve can message users who benefitted and ask them if they could be so kind to send back any wrongely received BTC. Asking never hurts, and might significantly reduce their loss.

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Tradeogre will never ask for money refund or donation.

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Better buy this Tradeogre exchange, get rid all other coins and start listing all stablecoins pair for Grin :sunglasses:

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not impossible at all :wink:

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Nah if it’s bought and only lists Grin then many will easily conclude something like “see? It’s a scam shitcoin with only one exchange owned by the core team”. Don’t do that.

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Maybe the opposite will happen, grin pairs with existing stablecoins such as USDT, USDC, and many more. Grin-specific exchanges only allow for rapid response and adaptation of Grin’s development.

Note: Only TradeOgre Active Exchange for Grin so far. Propose to buy this Exchange as soon as possible and make it Grin Exchange. :grin: Don’t just hope that someday grin can be obtained with usdt or usdc using cheaper networks such as tron ​​or algorand or solana, and so on, or hope that the exchanges will quickly respond to the changing depo and wd Grin methods, or hope there are grin/usdt, grin/usdc, grin/usd, grin/idr, or whatever pairs needed.

And about shitcoin? All coin are shitcoins until proven otherwise and Grin is no shitcoin because proven in the code we trust. :rofl: Have you seen Paypal? Paypal is no “shitcoin” because centralized gateway.

Just as an update for those who where not in yesterdays keybase governance meeting.
In summary, we discussed compensating TradOgre and agreed that it would set a rather dangerous precedence.
Instead it was agreed that we should support Grin on a more personal basis. E.g. we can make personal donations to them, and more importantly, those who wrongefully profited, e.g. received BTC for a Grin transaction that was not included in the blockchain, should simply return the BTC if they value TO as exchange.

Bla bla bla … shit talk

Are council nuts ?? In what world you live ??

If someone will return Btc to Tradeogre i will double that sum

Basically most at the meeting agreed that they support TradeOgre, but compensating for an attack would set a dangerous presedence, which no other coin does. The damage TO incured was approximately 50k Grin, so 25000$. It is something TO can handle.

In the end I agree with the others who were present at the meeting, which was many from the community as well, so it is not like the Council is having a different opinion than the community.
Those in the community who wrongly benefited, basically getting free BTC should be the ones to listen to their concious and support TO. If I wrongely received BTC for Grin I never lost, I would mosts defenitely be supportive of TO and give it back.