We should quit this little experiment

Yes! We should quit this little experiment called grin, the Network Hashrate is in its lowest level since I don’t know when, the “main” repository looks dead, honestly how many developers are currently contributing to the mimblewimble github account? 2 and a half? 1? but still, who can really read that Rust code? but at least the “memory is safe” right?! :unamused: … and @igno.peverell remains as the main contributor, we lost @Yeastplume and I could bet @lehnberg can’t sleep thinking about what if we lose @antioch :pray:

Well, at least we have Grin++ :raised_hands: that beautiful, easy to use, private wallet, translated into 14 different languages, available for Windows, Linux, macOS and Android (if you want to use grin on iOS go and download IronBelly now and, please, stop asking me about iOS, thank you). Grin++ is so good that even @tromp is using it, but also 50% of all users. But… how do we thanks @david for his amazing work? with an endless amount of “debates” that turn out into personal attacks after the third message? he’s the only one with enough guts to talk about uncomfortable topics, and we have a lot, but also, it looks like he’s the only one that is really worried about usability, he wrote a whole node/wallet by himself, he’s always trying to elevate grin to the next level and he’s always willing to offer support to everybody… you know what?! I propose to split the funds in a half between grin-* and Grin++, and trust me, I’m not biased at all :innocent:

Now, what about the ASICs? Who has received one? and I mean, someone outside China, did you @johndavies24? I’m sorry but after watching The China Hustle I am not the same person anymore, for real.

We should quit this thing… anyways we don’t even have presence on Social Media, no one will miss us… not even the moon guys on the Telegram Grin Community. I can’t decide what is more annoying to me: the people who join the Grin++ group asking for support without scrolling up a bit or the people talking about grin economics over and over again.

Oh, man… we should quit this thing…

But… stay with me… what if… and this is a huge extra large, what if…

What if what we’re doing is something bigger than us here? What if low inflation (or disinflation?) with a limited supply of 1 grin per second is the key? what if the Grin-Mini miner is actually real and anyone from any corner of this extensive planet could mine their own grins? I mean, f**k Exchanges, we have TradeOgre now, but we could have many more. What if grin becomes the purest academic coin and then this will attract the attention of communities focused on true privacy: cypherpunks, privacy advocates, activists and true journalists. Then, more regular people will join us. In a world where Censorship is becoming more and more popular, people will need to find new ways of bypassing government restrictions. Perhaps it is just me, but sometimes I think this reality is getting too close to a 1984 dystopia.

I have to be honest… every time I explain the Interactivity thing to others I’m actually really surprise when I receive answers like: “awesome, so I have full control of my wallet”, and specially coming from non tech users. That reaction happens a lot, maybe most of the time. I know, anecdotes are not science, but even some crypto users admit they would like to be able to cancel transactions. I also heard someone asking: “and can I accept transactions too?”… of course, I don’t think if someone receives a big amount of grins will reject the transaction, but it is at least interesting to hear that.

Look, it’s a huge headache thinking on how to simplify the Grin++'s UI both Desktop and Android… and it is not figurative speaking. It is not an easy task. It feels like we have to deal with the consequence so to say, of some grin… “features”… but if we stop for a second, the truth is you only need to exchange 2 messages at any time from any location, you could do it off-line and/or online, and to be fair, that’s amazing. I know that dealing with tor and censorship is a pain in the ass but it is possible and maybe in the future it will be easier and easier, maybe it won’t be using tor, maybe it will be using something else. I’m not even sure if I will open a funding request in the near future, I know that if I’m not delivering true value the Community will eat me alive, but it needs to be that way, we must have very high standards. I want to see more people involved in grin, but all of us should deliver true value. Also, let’s try to keep our current devs involved, we need them.

Yes! We should quit this little experiment called grin, but first… let’s try to embrace the motto: “Designed for the decades to come, not just for tomorrow. To be used by anyone, anywhere, without censorship or restrictions”… and then… let’s see what happens, it is hard to deny that we are all curious about what will happen to this yellow thing.

David T.
[yes, I have to use the “T” because some people still confuse me with Burkett, I mean, I wish but I’m not :rofl:]

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Do you know of any instance where Grin funds were spent unwisely?

Btw, I do think David Burkett deserves reward for all the great work he’s done.

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No.

I linked my funding request saying that I am not biased. That statement is totally a sarcasm.

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Others will call it dejavu I call it common findings. You can confirm my comment from the user “d-resistance” which was written a little while ago before your post @davidtavarez :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Such behavior only brings disappointment. Unless some people have decided that Grin mining will be done only by the chosen ones.

@nirg the G1-Mini miner is something that is too good to be true and I’m a bit skeptical, I don’t want my wishes to be involved in my opinion. I am not saying that is a scam, I’m just saying that I want this miner to be real and I prefer to just wait… I think we have to wait and see.

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In order not to have misunderstandings, I did not say or claim that it is a scam. I just wonder why they do not answer any of us but nevertheless people in China only get it as we see

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Shouldn’t the fund be used for things that contribute to the Grin ecosystem, including multiple implementations, but also other projects that may arise in the future? Instead of being used for just two implementations. To me it looks, like there is room for two implementations and some more.

Based on some forum posts, some readers may believe that Grin is terribly hard to use, but actually even with the core CLI wallet, it is not hard. Actually quite enjoyable even, if you like a simple straight-to-the-point system with a small download size. It is just different from what people are already used to. I believe that the low hashrate can mostly be attributed to low price and low price can be mostly attributed to high relative inflation in the early phase. Supply trumps demand at this point in time. Improving wallet UX is great, but it cannot increase demand on its own. For now, I find protocol-level improvements (without polluting it) just as important.

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A german chancellor once said: Character proves itself in the crisis.

Since I got involved with the Grin project, which was in April 2019, i witnessed how the project took one heavy hit after another.
I don’t know how to recognize the bottom of such downward-spiral but the constant delisting of it from exchanges and the poor adoption of grin v.5 at the remaining exchanges (most do not allow
deposit & withdrawal anymore) makes me ask myself: How much lower could Grin possibly fall?

However during this whole downward spiral i always had the impression that the Grin-project is doing exceptionally well for a project that is constantly in heavy waters. That in particular beeing:

  1. The discussions surrounding various technical and organizational aspects of the project are passionate and sincere. More than often they remind me of some soap-opera. There is often some drama-vibe in the air which i personally do not appreciate that much, but its presence is proof that people are still passionate about this project. Also, as to my knowledge, no Developer left the project in bad faith or in open dispute.

  2. The driving forces behind the project, Tromp in particular, defend the design principles as best they can and fortunately successfully. One of the core design-principles is Minimalism.
    I had my hard time with that one, since more than often it did collide with an important aspect that is of paramount value for me: Usability.
    I would guess that out of the 8,363 cryptocurrencies listed on coinmarketcap, Grin may have been - due to its interactivity-model - one of the most difficult to use Cryptocurrencys in the space.
    But again: Davids & Davids Grin++ Desktop/Mobile implementations proofed that Grin can be used nicely and without any hassle. It just works, its splendid.
    The minimalistic approach is a suitable nutrient medium to build projects on top of Grin. In the long run Grins minimalistic nature may proof as very valuable.
    Time will tell.

  3. The issues Grin has today (Delisting from Exchanges) all other cryptocurrencies (!!!) might get in the future. One day in the future, when the users of the other cryptocurrency-projects get a mental meltdown, the Grin Project would be just like:

In mid-September 2020, five important EU states - Germany, France, Italy, Spain and the Netherlands - issued a declaration calling for a precise and stable set of regulations for cryptocurrencies.
Should this not be adhered to, the private currencies would have to be banned (https://www.nzz.ch/finanzen/kryptowaehrung-sie-wird-von-notenbanken-umarmet-und-verteufelt-ld.1583739).
The central Banks are printing money like there is no tomorrow: M1 Money Stock (M1) | FRED | St. Louis Fed
They will not allow people to move their funds where they do not can control them.
However, the authorities might not be able to ban blockchain-based cryptocurrencies as such (how can you enforce the ban of a decentralized database?), but they will be able to squeeze the cryptocurrencies through their gateways, hence the Exchanges. Here the delisting-experience Grin is collecting today may be very valuable in the future, when the whole space gets in heavy water (where Grin is already today). Against this background i love the proposal from Tromp for a testnet exchange as a base-layer for future projects (Testnet exchange).

  1. The declining Developer-Count is hurting, there is nothing to doubt about that. But i think Dogecoin had its last commit on Github 15 Months ago (i may be wrong here), its now in Top 20 in CMC. Since the main work seems already to be done with Grin v5 the declining development may not harm the project immediately. People and Devs that care about cryptocurrencies the way the Grin Community cares about, will find their way to Grin.

  2. It may sound euphemistic, but where there is not much ground left bottom-wise, there is much upward potential and this is the position where Grin may be today.
    In my Opinion Grin has proofed itsself so far in this dark times and may got the thick skin it needs for the future regulation of the space it is evolving in. I am looking forward to see Grin going places.

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@davidtavarez It’s not easy, it’s not easy! It’s not easy for grin to develop to today. Thank you!
Grin really needs a complete change!

i deeply believe in this project. i believe in it because it’s scalable/ light and there is no other project that can claim the same. Grin aim to survive for the next N years.

i believe in it because it’s private. maybe not as private as monero because of i/o links but things will get better thanks to @tromp , @phyro and others who are working hard on various technical solutions. once this accomplished Grin can clearly proves its SUPREMACY (correct me if i’am wrong :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:)

i believe in it because it’s fair, monteary policy is outstanding, and whenever you join as a user or a miner you will always get the exact same chance than the previous ones.

i believe in it because … it’s interactive and despite the fact that this not very intuitive, its usable and grin ++ / niffler / ironbelly made it usable by improving the user flow and user experience.

it’s scalable, private and usable and whatever other are saying, please advise them to get to know more about the project before trying to use it / invest in it like it was any other copy paste project. things are different and we will not try to “adapt” just to make it more intuitive (like fire and forget tx)

Despite the delisting, our poor reach and marketing, our product is evolving every day.

i think that all of you guys are making history …

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Соберитесь! С вами даже люди из России! Я в этом проекте с 2019 года, покупал каждый раз ваш токен чтобы поддержать проект. Донатил на собственную рекламу вашего проекта и ВЫ просто так сдаетесь? У нас в стране люди говорят так: Прошёл пол пути, тогда иди дальше и не оглядывайся, чтобы не усомниться в своих действиях. Я не верю, что вы прошли такой длинный путь - зря. Если вы хотите доказать, что вы такие же как и все, то тогда давайте, закрывайте проект, опускайте руки. Если же вы хотите, чтобы каждый пользователь узнал о Грине, тогда вносите новшества в алгоритм. Вносите обновления, вливайте в рекламу, а сообщество поможет - подхватит. Будьте уверены, с вами люди! С вами мы - Гриновцы! Вы сделали открытие, продолжайте и не смейте останавливаться. Я здесь не за деньгами, я здесь чтобы увидеть проект который войдет в пятерку лучших! И только попробуйте, падлы, не оправдать моих ожиданий и ожидания коммьюнити. В ваших руках изменить понятия о криптовалюте, не смейте сдаваться! Поняли? Грин - не сдается. Грин - творение умных людей. Грин - это будущее.

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Well, Hollywood got you the easy way then. I personally would never let a movie influence my way of thinking, but who am i :wink:

We should believe in grin and ipollo!

It is always darkest before dawn.

I believe in Grin and believe it’s needed even more than ever.

The hash rate is my biggest concern.

I don’t really know if I am sure if Grin will survive.

I sure hope it does.

As someone who was vocal in the community 18 months ago, I don’t think the council cares about the community.

I don’t enjoy interacting in the forum. I don’t have much faith in the teams ability to communicate with early adopters.

XRP is a shit coin. Some how it has galvanised a large population of people to believe in it no matter what.

Grin needs to evangelise. It needs to reach out to people and show them why it’s important.

It’s funds should be spent partly on advertising.

Tech guys always seem to forget that technology does not win because it’s the best. It wins via adoption and convenience.
It wins if it can have a narrative the speaks to the core of people.

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I’d agree with the hashrate concern, but lets hope for the best.

This sounds very non-cypherpunk. Spending funds on advertisement should be the last thing we do since we have a lot of things to improve on the wallet and node. On top of that, Justin Tron will throw more money at advertising so it will be more popular. We need people that believe in Grin, work on it and share the enthusiasm with others. I think it’s up to you and me to advertise the project.

Btw, what will likely happen is that some fund will buy huge bags of Grin and advertise it to pump their bags, so I think it’s a solved problem. They will do it for us. And they have plenty of things they can use for advertising because Grin is unique in many respects:)

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It looks like you need detailed reports with the names of the evangelists. Nobody will come and tell you, “Look! I am an evangelist.”

Everyone does the best they can. And there are more Grin evangelists than you think.

Absolute truth.

I’m not a cypherpunk. I’m a person that believes in crypto. I believe the best crypto is fungible, truly private and truly decentralised.

If you want normal people to use Grin, then engage with normal people.

Elitist mentality on purity is misguided.

Grin will be the HDDVD of crypto without trying to communicate to the people that need it.

Wozniak is a genius. He would not have gotten the Apple computer to the masses.

Not a fan of Steve jobs for many reasons but he could see how to get something important to many people.

“Advertising” is not what I want. I want to get the message out.

This team (imo) is developing the single most important technology for money and it may not even be a footnote in history.

I don’t want Grin to be Betamax.

It looks like to me that Grin may well fail.

A crypto with 30% of the features and consideration of Grin may become successful because of how it’s communicated.

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Google “Grin” and tell me what you find.

Google “privacy coin”

Google “how to protect my crypto from the government.”

How to protect my crypto spending habits.

These should all have results for Grin that would explain grin in a simple and easy way.

Who do these listed evangelists communicate with?

Marketing is not evil. It’s a tool.

I get the impression that it is felt that if we all tell our friends then Grin will grow.

🤦

Sorry I think Grin should be available to everybody.
Making it open source and expecting people to find it is ludicrous.

There is too much background noise.

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After reading your posts in this topic, it was noticeable that you are really passionate and you are interested in being in this. Just continue. Don’t get discouraged.

Just stick to the set standards. They are quite tall and ambitious. Maintain faith in the project and the team.

Patronising much?

I don’t have faith.

I have misguided hope.

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