Liquidity isn’t just about how much Grin you can sell—it’s also about how much you can buy. A well-functioning market requires liquidity on both sides of the order book, with limit orders placed to narrow the spread and ensure smoother price action.
When there’s adequate liquidity, buyers and sellers can transact without causing major price swings. This stability builds confidence in the market, allowing larger trades to happen without drastically impacting the price. That’s essential for fair and efficient trading.
Some people view paying for market makers as market manipulation, but ironically, the absence of market makers allows bad actors to manipulate prices more easily. Without proper liquidity, it’s easier for a few individuals to exploit thin order books, creating unnecessary volatility and, in essence, stealing value from legitimate traders. While the idea of avoiding exchange fees may seem noble, not funding market support could ultimately harm Grin’s adoption and usability.
If the Grin community is open to funding a trading account on TradeOgre, I’d be happy to manage it to help improve liquidity and price stability. Let’s discuss the best way to approach this.
So far we tried to stimulate Grinconomics, it was a hassle, well intended and not something to repeat. Facilitating liquidity and prise stability is too close for comfort to market making which we are not allowed to do as stated in the CCs code of conduct and spending guidelines. Futhermore, the problem with paying market makers is that it creates risks and exposes CC funds to attacks just like for any normal trader. What if part of the funds get lost in the process? What if bad actors overwelm the liquidity we would provide? I prefer to keep things simple, the market is free and anyone is free to buy bottoms and sell the tops. Anyone willing can become a market maker with their own funds to stabilize thr price and make profits from price swings.
And even if there is, that clearly is a mistake - as anyone can see by looking at the state of Grins current available markets ( or lack their of)
As for me, ya I happily do individual market make for grin coin, very successfully I might add. Was simply offering my service for the community.
Not to be rude, but I suspect the hesitation with market making is the fact that the cc or w/e doesn’t even have any grin? They just hold btc but when that crashes it’s gonna be ironic.
Where do you do that today? On TradeOgre? Would you prefer to do it elsewhere? Or are you saying it’s purely just a volume concern? Like if we supply more Grin, more will be bought? Demand follows supply?
Yes on tradeogre, yes, it’s exactly that, a volume concern.
When providing liquidity, it’s on both sides, selling and buying.
Without enough volume then poor acting individuals can cause manipulations like this spike here, which lures investors in, only to take their money away.
While as a market maker, moves like this, are profitable for me - not so much the traders
Preventing massive price swings like this is the market makers job, doing this is not only profitable for the market makers, but it also makes grin coin much more appealing to all sorts of financially inclined people for a variety of reason.
With the listing of full of meme coins and even non-crypto coin Pi network in famous exchanges, I have strong believe that Grin will shine again one day, just don’t know when
The problem with relying entirely on individuals to market make for grin is, that I’d say about 99% of people involved with crypto, haven’t got a clue what market making even is.
YouTube only teaches people how to be traders. In fact, according to the uninformed cypherpunk masses, market makers are hilariously portrayed as the “enemy”
Anyways, it does seem like many members of the grin community are indeed interested in expanding the depth the grin market exchange availability - and at this point, it seems like this supposed cc or w/e, are actually going against the majority will of those involved in the project.
So if the council or cc or w/e core refuse to open up the community donated tunds, then we as individuals who do indeed want to see grin supported financially in the markets, should start to donate to a different community wallet to fund a trading account for grin. Thoughts?
Yes, if you want there to be a fund for liquidity and market making, this should be a separate fund. People can donate to it if they want, but I doubt it would attract a lot of funding. But if you are pro at market making, perhaps such a fund would have added value.
I suspect some old BTC holders might already play market makers for Grin to some extend. A low value might tell you something about this market making, not sure if they or other community members are willing to donate to such a fund or prefer to do it themselves.
To give you an example about individuals influence on the market. In the dip in the past week I accumulated the majority of the grin funds I hold. I think the TO owner or other users bridged my buy orders to other markets like Gate.io. They slowly got filled over time. This indirectly buffered the market, but since there is a delay, some entities could still manipulate graphs by creating short term price peeks up or down. Especially if they use an API with multiple market, or do not have lock times of funds (like the owners of exchanges), they can easily manipulate price graphs. Nothing we can do about it. Those with insider power can do things a normal user cannot. It does not change the real value of Grin. If there is no liquidity to back a price level or the observed volume is just a single or few entities selling and buying their own sell orders, that has nothing to do with the price of Grin, it is just nice market/graph manipulation. Unfortunately beginning crypto users do not get that the price in a graph can be extremely deceptive.
Another thought, is it actually a problem when the price gets manipulated a bit? If someone did not manipulate the price like they did, I could not have bough the grin I hold right now for the price I did. Everyone is free to profit from price manipulation, or lose if they cannot HODL their grin as they should.
I’m not as knowledgeable as you on this topic, but what is significant about that spike? We see spikes like that literally every day in the biggest liquidity coins in the world, don’t we?
People want Grin on more exchanges, yes. We submitted a request to get added to Kraken for example.
The concern that I have seen is more-so that Grin is only on a couple exchanges. One more delisting and it could be bad, for example.
But let’s say that the real problem is not the number of exchanges but the amount of liquidity.
What happens when we add $10,000 more Grin liquidity to an exchange? Could someone not just buy all of it and cause a spike? How does market making avoid that?
Why do you think that? I think it’s good to ask questions. It’s being a good steward of the funds.
Market making is an acquired skill through years of experience, unfortunately I’m unable to explain it to you here, but long story short, no, you don’t see spikes like this with other coins (2x and back down again in less then afew hours)
However, I am willing to do my best to bring some knowledge to the public on this topic. There is a plethora of different styles of market making - it’s not as simple as just putting in 10k.
Personally, the technique I use is most often a “grid trading” style - you are welcome to research it more if you so desire.
I’m really loving that you’re showing a genuine interest in this Trab.
Let’s take one step back, it’s like this - I want to hire a painter to paint my house, and this particular tradesman is offers a discount, 30% off the final estimated cost, if the customer, pays in Grin. So, the financial savvy customer decides that this is a wise choice, being that they are located in a region that is not able to kyc, they decide to use tradeogre to buy grin coin… now this is where poor customer is gonna run into a problem, you see, the estimated cost to paint his house after the discount, is about 10k.
So ehen he goes into tradeogre to buy grin, the first thousand dollars he can by grin at about 2 cents per coin, but very very quickly, as he tries to buy the very readable amount of 10k, the last coin he ends up paying 2 or 3x more then he payed for his first few thousand. Now his “discount” has been erased because of the lack of liquidity on the exchange - the painter will also run into a similar problem when he tries to cash out his grin.
This lack of liquidity makes grin mostly unusable as a form of value exchange.
I hope this analogy helps you understand the fundamentallity of proper liquidity support - a coin can have the best code in the world, and still be worthless if it’s unusable.
We can dive deeper into specifics goals and how to maintain a funded trading account, if there is a serious interest in doing this. But in short, the actions (trades) would have to be approved, so there would be heavy oversight and limited privileges/access for the portfolio manager (market msker), or it could be commission etc etc, full transparency etc.
Not quite. He just puts in a limit buy order at the current price, and then waits for his order to be slowly filled. This tends to take one or two weeks.
Fun fact, creating large spikes up or down in graphs is easy. For example, in an hour there might be no trades in Grin on TO. A few seconds before the hour is hit, I buy 1 grin for 1$. Since it is the only data point, holly cow what a green candle, grin suddenly climbed to 1$.
Now lets say I am a pro and use the API. I create a large sell order, bigger than any of the limit buy orders, and I immediately buy it back via another account. Holy cow, a large price swing backed by volume.
These are practices you can do little about, because the one with the most volume to manipulate can always set/manipulate the price. And as the first example describes, often you can manipulate the price while only spending pennies.
ya exactly, two weeks to maybe scrounge up a measly 10k liquidy. You highlight the problem rather then refute it tromp,
The house will be painted in two weeks and the tradesman is waiting for his payment and it’s like “hold on sir, there is a seriously liquidity issue on the exchange.”
Then he puts a lean on your house
Alternatively it would work like this: this customer comes and buys 10,000k worth of grin from our limit sell order. Then he pays the painter. The painter next comes on the exchange and sells his grin to our limit buy order. Everyone’s happy, and our funded account profits between 5-10% on the spread. Everyone wins.
“ For example, in an hour there might be no trades in Grin on TO. A few seconds before the hour is hit, I buy 1 grin for 1$. Since it is the only data point, holly cow what a green candle, grin suddenly climbed to 1$.”
I agree, this all true.
