Bitcoin Lightning and Grin

i dont know how Lightning works , how it will effect adoption? i saw Twitter added Lightning,idk if its trustless or not.

But how is Lightning effect ,Grins payment channels or electronic cash motto? Any correlation or conflict rival thing? Any idea?

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Lightning makes bitcoin more anonymous, and makes it possible to spend smaller amounts by being affordable. Lightning is trustless, but you have to option to trade it being trustless for convenience.

Technically you could implement a lightning network using Grin as the base layer as well (as far as I know). You could even implement atomic swaps between the two lightning networks (I think?), effectively forming into a super-lightning network like Voltron.

You might argue that Grin becomes obsolete because of Lightning Network making transactions private on Bitcoin, but for larger amounts (above $500) it’s challenging to use Lightning Network, and probably more or around as expensive as using base-layer transactions.


wow,thnx for info. i didnt know Lightning N. makes tx private…it is micropayments below $500 and if its trustless and private ,that can make Grin obsolete maybe, idk if LN is scalable also.

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I did read somewhere else that lightening network backed by Blockstream and other companies so basically about the private part, it won’t be 100% private.

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Lightning is definitely not private, and 90% of people using it are using custodial solutions for it.

More importantly, Grin won’t be obsolete because it has a fundamentally different emission strategy that is superior to Bitcoin.

The Lightning Network is convincing pea brain bag holders to spend their Bitcoin while the whales (smart people) are just amassing more and more.

You’d have to be crazy to ever actually spend Bitcoin considering that it has a hard supply cap.


i had the idea of Grin becoming the 2nd layer for Bitcoin ,a payment coin for internet shop,merchant but lightning is welcomed already. Thus now Grin should have a 2nd layer like grinbox or somethng i wonder.

Nobody talks about LN and merchand ,net shopping at Grin community.

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Lightning payments are private indeed, although the underlying bitcoin transactions are most likely not (although you can perform measures to anonymize your bitcoin outputs with mixing or other means). So after you’ve opened a lightning channel, and you make a payment, then any information about who receives the payment is anonymous.

Some information is leaked to your channel peers, but using routes with multiple hops over nodes obscure this information, and your peer will not know if you are simply routing for someone else, or if you are making a payment yourself.

When you close your channel you will also reveal that the amounts have changed, but you could have processed a very high number of payments on the lightning network during the life of the channel, so the information revealed is minimal.

True, if you use a custodial wallet, then you are at the wallet provider’s mercy for your privacy, but you can run your own lightning wallet.

So I would definitely say a Lightning Network on Grin would be even more private, but Lightning Network on Bitcoin is quite private as well.


Is there any reason that the second layer couldn’t be something like federated mints? Blockstream

Let’s say that Lightning is 100% private. I still see the supply cap in Bitcoin as a big flaw.

The idea that “bitcoin is time” falls apart when blocks are no longer mined at predictable intervals.

And after it’s all mined, it is actually more prone to manipulation and panic, not less.

I don’t see why blocks would not be mined at predictable intervals?

In terms of what happens after the block reward is gone I guess we’ll just have to see. We’ll get an indication of the trend as the block reward reduces, so it might give hints at whether or not miners will disappear. I’d guess it depends on the value of Bitcoin tokens and the popularity of spending on the network, which has feedback loop characteristics in both ways, negative and positive.

i checked a Bitcoin Lightning wallet named ‘Breez’ i put SS ,it amazed me it looks like just Grin slatepack.
Have a look at. ¯_(ツ)_/¯!

edit. fotos arent in order. sorry.

Got some news on twitter about bitcoin lightning issue:
So, is it supposed that lightning got many flaws and will be dead soon? Any alternative ways to scale out? Increase block size? What about Grin scability (in future)?

The Problem has been described as follow: You want to send BTC from person A to person C, but you only have a LN setup between A/B and B/C.

The solution to avoid having to set up an A/C link is that A will give to B and B will give to C.

The flaw appears to be able to cause the A/B link to fail while allowing the B/C transaction to go through, resulting in person B losing money.

EDIT: the linked article has a better description.

Basically, person A and person C can collude to cause person B to lose money

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An alternative solution are side chains/drive chains.
See here a link that @oryhp shared recently on KeyBase in another context. Still interesting read.

Only if A/C have extensive resources, including control over B’s mempool, and if A/C are willing to lose more money in the process than B is willing to lose.
That’s why this attack has not been seen to happen in the wild.

The cost to the attacker can be further raised with mitigations like minimum mempool space reserved for higher feerate txs as I suggested to Antoine, which could make the attack mostly theoretical.


So far I have not heard of any actual attacks happening on Lightening.
In general it is to complex and not lucrative enough to pull of, especially when there are shitcoins to hack providing much more loot. If it ever happens I think it would be more likely done to create FUD and dump the Bitcoin price and not for gaining profit from LN itself.

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New vulnerabilities for LN are appearing regularly, it is normal for actively developing solution, nobody is telling how much Bitcoins were lost already actually, only some Korean hackers know, I guess =)

Ethereum is more popular place to hack indeed, current state of LN: put here as much Bitcoins as you can afford to lose.

IMHO BTC Lightning can be useful for a somewhat trustless trade.
There is thing called “hold invoices”, that basically freeze lightning btc in a transaction, so other action can be executed in the meantime (a Grin transaction, a parcel service, etc).
Example: A buys 10USD of Grin to B and pays with lightning btc.
C is a trusted imparcial party (say a bot running a lightning node).
B generates lightning invoice to C. C decodes invoice to obtains the invoice payment hash.
C generates a hold invoice using the same hash and presents it to A.
A pays the hold invoice. Now btc is locked. C tells B money is locked. B transfers Grin to A. C somehow validates the Grin transaction did take place. C pays invoice to B, and C is now in power of the pre image of the hash. C unlocks and settles the hold invoice by revealing the pre image to A.

Lightning is all about liquidity. Channels are onchain transactions, so no way for everyone to have rheir own channels. No scalability. Also lightning means a lot of code and software running on top of the btc software. Chance of bugs is high. Not for nothing lightning is called “reckless”.