Yeastplume - Planned Development work 2025

Hi all! I just wanted to take a moment to quickly outline what I intend to focus on this year for Grin’s development. As always, there’s more to do than I can handle (hint, hint), but my goal is to keep things simple and focus on a few key areas that I believe will make the biggest impact. Here’s a breakdown of what I’m planning to work on.

1. The “Core” GUI wallet - (Or basically just Grim if possible - see below.)

2. Achieving a working mwixnet – I think this is now a critical piece to enhance Grin’s privacy and usability.

3. Further experimentation with the wallet’s contracts branch – While not a top priority, this is a promising area I’d like to explore as time allows.

4. Exploring Agentic AI Interactions with Grin – This might be a bit of a surprise, but I’ll explain below.

## Core GUI Development Update

I’ve put a lot of time into developing the Core Grin GUI over the past couple of years. It’s been a valuable project, especially as a testbed for experiments like the contracts branch. However, I’m not entirely happy with the current technology stack. The iced-rs framework, while promising, has caused more headaches than I’d like:

* It moves very, with frequent undocumented breaking changes

* Debugging can be painful, and resource requirements are heavier than expected

* Basic widgets often need to be implemented manually, which is time-consuming

* Custom widgets tend to break with every update

That being said, I think we have a much better alternative in the new grim wallet, developed by @ardocrat. I’ve spent some time reviewing and auditing it (caveat: not exhaustively), and I think it ticks all the boxes for what we need in a core GUI wallet:

* It’s a pure Rust implementation

* It uses our core Grin libraries directly

* It supports both embedded and external node configurations

* It’s already very feature-complete, especially compared to my version

* It’s well-documented, easy to use and already has good cross-platform support

I need to talk to @ardocrat about how we can do this, but I’d very much like to explore how we can focus all of our GUI efforts on Grim.

## MWixnet Integration Progress

I’ve invested significant effort into getting mwixnet into a workable state. Last year, I focused on containerization through the grin-docker project, which has helped with testing and deployment. While we’ve seen some community engagement and testing progress, there are still issues that need addressing.

The good news is that we now have mwixnet request functionality in the Grin wallet API. (I’m particularly excited about the possibility of integrating this into grim, which would give us a user-friendly way to interact with mwixnet. This integration would be a significant step forward in making Grin’s privacy features more accessible to users.)

## Existing experimental work - Contracts branch and Payment Proofs

A lot of work has been done on the Grin wallet contracts branch, contracts workflows and the payement proofs they enable in particular. Depending on where we go with Grim, I’d like to move these into Grim in a ‘experimental’ mode and continue testing on them.

## Grin and AI

You might have noticed people using terms like “AI” or “LLM” over the past little while :D. While Grin has always been about simple, private, human-to-human transactions, it’s worth thinking about how it might fit into this emerging world. This is all highly speculative and based on a version of the future that might not come to pass, but I think it’s worth considering.

In particular, there’s a lot of buzz around ‘Agents’ and agentic workflows. These are e scenarios where autonomous AI agents perform tasks and interact with other agents or systems. Think of things like:

- AI purchasing cloud computing resources for itself.

- AI agents collaborating on projects, compensating each other for contributions.

- AI agents simply exchanging the costs of LLM calls with each other.

Personally, I’ve heard some buzz around the merging of cryptocurrency with AI, and I think Grin could fit very well into this world, particularly due to its inherenet privacy and multy-party transactions being a core feature.

I’m not saying AI is the future of Grin or that we need to pivot everything in this direction. But given where technology is headed, it seems worth at least exploring how Grin might play a role in this space. There’s potential here to position Grin as a tool for new types of use cases and maybe spark some fresh interest in the project along the way.

For instance, we could look into ideas like:

1. Wallets that AI agents can use autonomously - or “The LLM Wallet”. It should be possible to do this securely using local LLMs and secure function calling that doesn’t expose any passwords or wallet info.

2. Using Grin in AI-driven marketplaces for trading resources or services.

3. Privacy-preserving payments between AI agents, which fits naturally with Grin’s design.

This is still very much an idea in the exploration phase, but I think it’s worth trying out a few experiments to see what’s possible. It doesn’t need to be a major focus, but I think it’s an area with potential to keep Grin current and relevant as technology continues to evolve.

I’ll share more thoughts and updates as I dig into this, but for now, I’d love to hear what others think. Maybe this opens up some interesting possibilities we haven’t considered yet.

Ongoing Bug Fixes and Maintenance

Like any long-term software project, a significant part of the work on Grin involves ongoing bug fixes, maintenance, and support across our many repositories. This might not be the most exciting part of development, but it’s essential to keeping everything running smoothly. I’ll be keeping an eye out for any outstanding issues and addressing them as they come up.

That’s all from me on development for now. There’s some other stuff around admin and communication that I also want to talk about, but I’m still thinking about those and will have that converstaion elsewhere. In the meantime, this is basically what I’ll be doing on the dev side.

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Thank you for sharing your development plan on 2025!

I hope it’s okay if I share my thoughts on it.

  1. Take my full support on concentrating efforts on one GUI wallet - Grim.

  2. While I see the potential of mwixnet, however I would not say that’s critical piece of code, simply because it is outside of the core protocol. I can also see that even if mwixnet code would be fully ready for deployment, nobody will wish to run it, because of the fear to be accused of money laundering or something like that (Samourai case).

  3. I think Contracts should get at least the same amount of your time as Mwixnet. That will give us an immediate privacy boost on the network (all transactions are payjoin by default). Besides other benefits (the fundament for multisig?).

  4. Please don’t waste your time on AI. Maybe I’m missing something and just can’t see how it could improve Grin.

Grin lacks some basic features:
BIP39 passphrases
Offline signing
Tor node
Tor mwixnet
Ability to generate new (fresh) Slatepack Address (tor)

We also need to push for payment proofs on TradeOgre and Grim. Grin-wallet has this functionality, so they just need to make use of it.

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I find it difficult to comprehend this artificial intelligence concept, especially after waiting for 4-5 years for development things below.

So multisignatures, atomic swaps are still not touched but ai ?

https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin-rfcs/pulls

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If you think that Grim has all it takes to be made “the core GUI wallet”, should it have an external security review for the GUI part? So far I have seen a lot to love with Grim wallet so if there is a way to work on it together with @ardocrat while keeping his freedom to develop it in the direction he wants, then making Grim the official GUI wallet should be fine.

For me personally, the contract branch with pay-joins and universal payment proofs ranks as important as mwixnet. I agree with @Cobragrin that multisig and atomic swap are also core features that are needed. At the end of the day, we just need more people to chip in on development. I hope some are capable and willing to take your very “subtle hints” :wink: that there is plenty to do for developers who want to join in.

Regarding AI, I do think Grin as interactive private crypto has use cases as “streaming money”. I have no particular vision for it but I do believe it is important to work on whatever you feel motivation for. So if exploring Grin uses cases for AI agents is what makes you feel excited, go for it.

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Thanks for responding! All noted, but we’ve had BIP39 passphrases for a very long time, ‘offline signing’ can be done depending on what you mean, but transactions are always interactive. Tor nodes aren’t a great idea because it will hinder block propogation, which you generally want to be as fast as possible (particularly given grin’s short block times), and mwixnet does work over tor, it’s the primary protocol.

I am the currently only person working on:

  • Grin development
  • Grin Wallet development
  • All ongoing maintenance related to above
  • Grin Wallet GUI (and I’m working on trying to consolidate community efforts here)
  • PIBD
  • All experimental features (contracts, transaction proofs)
  • mwixnet, and all related changes (which I’ve inherited against my wishes as its author has disappeared)
  • All deployments, docker (now snaps as well)

I have enough to do. Multisignatures and atomic swaps were all started by team members much more schooled in mathematics and bulletproof internals than I am, and I’ve had absolutely no input into them. I’ve made no promises around them myself, and I’ve also had my fill of inheriting work started by other people.

The good news is that you don’t need to wait another 5 years to see any work on these things, you can get started on them right now if you want. I look forward to your contribution, and I’d definitely support funding some quality work in that direction.

I’ve done some level or review myself, but yes we’ll eventually want some kind of audit. Keep in mind that would even be necessary with my own work. Of course it would need to be structured so that ardocrat remains control over the entire thing. (@ardocrat I’ve been trying to reach you on keybase to talk about it).

accepted, I’d want to work on getting those features experimentally compiled into grim (or shore up grin-gui if that doesn’t work)

I keep up with tech trends, and I do not currently believe AI is something that’s going to go away. Having Grin interact with AI agents is less about improving Grin and more about making Grin an attractive choice in the event where there’s a clearer case for merging agentic AI with cryptocurrency. I think it’s already close due to its transaction handing and API-first design.

Again, this is only a small pat of my focus, but if I want to experiment with Grin/AI because I think it’s worth looking into for the long-term future of Grin, then I will do so unapologetically. I’d love to have discussions around this with people who are relatively up-to-date with happenings in AI to develop ideas further.

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You sure about the passphrases? Nothing is in the docs or in grin-wallet commands.

By offline signing I mean the ability to isolate seed phrase into a cold storage but still be able to sign the transactions.

Tor nodes have been implemented in Bitcoin a while ago, that’s useful for those who want to run tor only nodes for privacy purposes. Mix of clearnet, clearnet&tor and tor only nodes should create a lively network.

You sure about mwixnet tor nodes? I mean, can you run mwixnet node on tor network and connect to it via onion domain not IP address?

My bad, I was thinking of recovery phrases, i.e. the concept of BIP39 itself, not the extra passphrase. fair enough.

We had this discussion many years ago on the original dev team, and the propogation was thought to be a major issue. This might be different these days, but we’d need an RFC and a case made.

Yes, you configure addresses of other mwixnet nodes via their hidden service addresses (forgot exact details but I believe they correspond to Dalek 25519 PKs).

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Ardocrat wants to be independent so that he has the freedom to make opinionated features.

Grim fundamentally cannot be a “core” GUI wallet.

This is not critical. Not even a little bit. If Grin needs this extra layer on the protocol in order to have good privacy, then Grin is fundamentally not a “privacy coin”. If it’s not a privacy coin, then privacy should not be a top priority.

Grin has “good enough” privacy and that’s great. What Grin currently doesn’t have is far more damning (see the wishlist).

This kind of trend chasing is what ruined Beam. Focus on making Grin, Grin. Don’t try to make it into a trend chasing meme.

5 years.
2020
2021
2022
2023
2024.

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Grin is a privacy preserving coin. The benefits of mwixnet are to good not be implemented. Besides, most work has been done already, leaving it now makes no sense. It was funded by the CC because the community wanted it. Imagine going from decent privacy to great privacy with neglectable impact on the chain size. That is magic most projects can only dream off. Grin is not a privacy maxing project, but greater privacy creates better fungability and better money. And that is what grin aims to be IMO, better money.

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Why not a bridge on the list? With 2 million in market cap your project fund is larger than your coin’s market cap

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That’s all well and good, but it’s just another thing for wallets to implement in the UX as well. The surface of the API gets larger.

There’s always an impact. No free lunch, etc.

Good point on it almost being done already. But it was it is still work that takes away from other things. And it doesn’t increase adoption. Nobody that left grin stated “not good enough privacy” as the reason.

The benefits, namely obfuscating the source of mixed outputs, are proportional to the number of authentic outputs that get mixed every day. Taking into account that only a small fraction of Grin users is willing to go to the extra effort (of configuring their wallet to make use of a mixnet, and troubleshoot mixnet issues, and find alternatives if existing mixnets go dark) to make their transactions less traceable, and that Grin daily transaction volumes are currently still rather low, I think the benefits would be somewhat limited.

It’s good to have the implementation finished and ready for experimentation, but I would agree that getting smooth and reliable wallet integration is not the highest priority.

I expect that making payjoin transactions the default in as many wallets as possible would be more beneficial at current tx volumes.

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What trend, AI? You mean the future? Clearly the man is trying to fry a steak, and you are trying to douse the fire. I On the other hand, would like to see this cook.

Coming from Yeast, I suggest you take these comments very seriously, and I advice a total shift from the CC to advance this goal.

If you can’t see the goal, I suggest you sit this out. If the CC can’t see this goal, I suggest you all resign.

(post deleted by author)

Totally bullshit about AI and he quits now!

My best experience of using Grin is when it was launched using an address like account for transaction with official non-GUI wallet. I am sorry to say that, but Grin++ and other GUI-like wallets are all garbages as compared to other coins.

The value of this Grin coin project will soon become 0! This project is so doomed now!

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Thanks to all the encouraging words, we now have 0 zero active developers :tada: :

Luckily there appear to be many in this project who think they know best, some of them must be hidden genius developers who will jump on the opportunity to help build grin, right… don’t be shy now…

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if Grin relies on 1 single developer to live, if it will die without him or without Igno then it already failed with decentralized, open source ethos.

He might be exhausted for long time, that is his decision. He remarked he is not dissapperaring anyway.
Grin can die again one more time i think.
The point is we should learn from the past and move forward.
This is not personal about Yeastplume or me or you. It is about Grin.

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Can you please elaborate on this?

Like everything else in life, grin has to keep evolving. I agree that contracts and payjoins are a priority (also a prerequisite for ai stuff imo) but i think that yeast’s ai ideas are interesting. I think people underestimate how fast such ai agents will spread. Also, try to be a bit more polite next time, the way you deliver a message is often more important than the message itself.

To everyone who’s complaining here, what have you personally done to improve grin as a project so far?

When things get rough people show their true faces.

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Exactly this. It is rather unsettling to see that even after so many years, still basic cordiality is not followed by most in the communication. It is fine to disagree, it is fine to criticize, but at least do so with respect and proper argumentation. I mostly notice it is always those who do not develop themselves who appear to most easily criticize those who do develop. I think it is because if you code yourself, it is easier to understand what is to be a developer, and that for example developers are not gods. They have strengths, weakness, can do some things and not other things, they make mistakes and simply do their best.

Not saying Grin dies if anyone in particular would leave. But the question remains, are we an open positive and attractive project for developers to work on? I think unfortunately the answer is no. For a large part that has to do with how we as communicate interact with developers.