GRIN s future, imagination

Hi all.

To warn you that all my conversations will go through google translate because i don’t know good english. I apologize in advance for possible misunderstandings.

How do you see a GRIN for 5,10,15 years?

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Either on its death bed or side by side with Monero.

Much of Grin’s properties are focused on sustainability (linear emission, simplicity, scalability) so one can only hope they’ll prove themself eventually.

Why Monero and not LTC/ BCH?

Because they’re useless and won’t survive even 5 years.

And privacy was always the end-goal.

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I’d argue that scalability is just as much of ‘the end-goal’ as privacy.

Agreed on the useless part. But even as a useless project, I can easily see LTC survive for 5 more years.

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That’s a fun question, here’s my take:

  • It won’t die - as long as we keep the properties Grin has, there will always be people that appreciate them and contribute to the project
  • The base layer will become stable - integrations will become easier both for building new wallets and connecting integrating Grin with various services
  • PayJoins will be the default transactions - they improve the receiver’s privacy in the long run, help the network obfuscation and are healtier for the network becuse they reduce the utxo set growth
  • Anyone will be able to run a fully verifying node - most other projects will take too much disk space for people to run a full node on. Grin will be able to run on a RaspberryPi or similar, possibly with a variant of a nimble node
  • Wallets will be competing in privacy - various coinjoin servers and new kind of tx aggregators will be available that will be wallet specific
  • Privacy will become more important - when your neighbours start using crypto it will become more important that they’re not able to know what you’re buying and where. Projects that do chain analysis will be open source and available to anyone.
  • Simplicity, privacy and scalability will be important - Some of the privacy coins will die due to newly found exploits in their design. Some of them will require too beefy hardware to run and won’t be accessible to people. Grin has a unique combination of these and is less likely to have a fatal flaw which is why I think it has a bright future.

Grin will never have the privacy of ZCash. Likewise, ZCash will never have the simplicity of Grin. It’s possible that ZCash will scale better if they manage to build succinct proofs for chain history - I’m not too familiar with this though so I can’t tell what the differences will be.

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You really need to show that payjoins do what you say to privacy instead of just say it. Default makes it worse too. Also, UTXO growth is great for network obfuscation and privacy, consolidation is bad for it. These comments are not in agreement with each other and again seem to rely on a vanilla block explorer as tool to measure privacy.

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It’s much better to have many people think about the same idea so that we come to different conclusions and then compare them. So I’m hoping others take the time to study payjoins further. They were definitely misjudged by the community - how much is yet to be determined though.

Much of what we are discussing is measurable, so we should not come to different conclusions in such cases. Everyone really needs to reassess their priorities and consistencies… Cant prioritize minimizing UTXO set (aka scalability here) and maximize privacy, they oppose each other. Cant prioritize minimalism/simplicity and use dandelion. Cant prioritize a trustless, pure coin and require a 3rd party to issue domain name and trusted SSL cert to communicate with your node remotely in a secure manner.

A lot of shit is out of wack here and it seems as if prior concessions and willingness to maximize the final product have ended up half baked and are slipping away in favor of minimalism/academic perspectives.

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It is measurable, but it’s hard to come up with concrete numbers because there are many possible combinations which makes it very hard to give a number comparison. I’ve tried to outline why I believe payjoins make sense in some previous discussions - if that’s not convincing enough, someone smarter will do a better analysis and show why they make sense (or maybe why they don’t). I think we’re very far from having privacy issues because of the utxo set size. Tbh, I don’t think this will ever be relevant because once you have utxo set size 100k, this is no longer an issue. Dandelion itself is the simplest idea ever, so it is minimalistic itself imo. Could you explain what you mean with the SSL cert?
Why do you associate academic with something bad? Academic is good in general, especially when you plan to handle a lot of money.

I dream of walking through the market, I take out the GRIN transmitter on the seller’s receiver and buy a carrot.

that is the essence

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GRIN is lonely, he needs more smart, honest hardworking people.

You have an idea how to find people without money?

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When a single user consolidates UTXOs it makes their privacy worse. When an individual increases the links with outputs it has owned (or does own) it makes their privacy worse. PayJoins do both of these things.

Some of your bullet points (namely the PayJoins one) from your post and your replies since are confusing because sometimes we’re referencing individual and sometimes we’re referencing network wide view. And the network-wide view is rarely fully considering all the extra data that would be used on top of a vanilla block explorer to analyze the network.

Dandelion is far more complicated than broadcasting, like basically all other coins. It was just an example where minimalism and simplicity was replaced with a logical choice to increase privacy.

In order to securely connect to your own remote node you need to have your node behind a domain name and have a trusted 3rd party issue you an SSL cert for that domain. Otherwise you communicate over clear or hope for a trusted node out there.

For the 100th time, I am an academic. It is not associated with emotions like good or bad. But practical matters much more for the real world. Academic is for exploration and not for replacing fiat, central banks and the world economy.

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Each utxo will get spent once and when it does, you want it to be spent along with the inputs of other people to increase the input identity set. If we don’t use payjoins right now, then every input of a tx (before aggregation) comes from the same person and the input identity set is 1 which shows a direct linkage of the two - owned by the same person. There are only 2 ways to increase the input identity set, the first is aggregation, the other is payjoins. The key idea here is that you want your input mixed with the inputs from others and when you don’t have aggregation guaranteed (we don’t have it), you’re left with payjoins only. Yes, this may give away an input to the party you transact with, but you’d give it to the whole world, including that party, if you spent it with the output you created later on. Privacy isn’t transaction scoped but rather transaction graph scoped and when you take the whole life-cycle of an output (creation and spending) into account, then payjoins start making sense - at least to me. I’ve only describe benefits for an individual, there’s other benefits (network, collective tx graph obfuscation) that I didn’t touch.

Forget that explorers exist, the only thing important is information and probabilities. I think payjoins improve this for the network by making backward tracing probabilistic with 1/2 probability instead of the 1.0 we have right now - so it becomes exponential (assuming the adversary doesn’t have the information).

It’s hard for me to imagine a simpler protocol for source obfuscation than Dandelion. Adding complexity outside of the base protocol is much easier choice - Dandelion lives outside of the main protocol.

I didn’t know about the remote node connection, sounds like it might need improvements :+1:

I don’t think we are ‘impractical’ and even if we are, I still believe Grin will get practical enough with time. I guess we disagree on this one :man_shrugging:

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Hype. Friendly, free, diverse community. Passion, revival of the ethos, of the ideals of the early years. Decentralization, common vision around the new money that is grin. focus on meritocracy.

Easier to say than to do… and these are just some of my personal thoughts.

But in a few words maybe: crypto-anarchy and cypherpunk living up :innocent:

Interesting question, and I would be happy to read others’ thoughts on it

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My hope as well as likely future for Grin and other crypro’s is that:

  1. Grin will become one of the top 10, and eventually top 5 coins.
  2. In 10 years we will have governament controlled cryptocurrencies that converge into 1-3 global currencies, the other governament controlled currencies will fail and merge into the few surviving governament controlled global currencies. However, their failure to be truely decentralised, private and free of changing monetarry policies will mean that in 10 years 80% of the population will own real cryptocurrencies, e.g 30-40% of their liquid money, so excluding property owned.
  3. Bitcoin will be the main store of value with equivalent or highet value of all the gold in the world combined. Mortgages and other loans will be offered in Bitcoin, but Bitcoin will only be used for major transactions.
  4. Banks and notaries will be generally used to provide backup methods to get access to crypto upon loss of devices or death of the owner.
    Other cryptocurrencies will express their value in BTC/Satoshi’s
  5. Grin will be popular due to its combination of small fees, good security, reasonable privacy and relatively stable value inherent to its linear supply rate. Grin will not beat other privacycoins on their privacy but will be generally recognized for the good balance of properties it has that make it THE MOST USED privacy coin for day to day life.

Just my optimistic futuristic hopes as well as expectations. A more pessimistic scenario would be that all the above will happen but it would take another 20-30 years.

Because both are true shitcoins.

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Why didn’t you took the blue pill…