Emission rate of Grin

Market
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Wouldn’t that be assuming people want to purchase(exchange their traditional money for Grin) this coin only for it to diminish in value when they can purchase bitcoin, tether, or any other coin that’s a store of value or stablecoin? Outside of the market crashing, they can rest insure the value of their money will not be lesser then when they bought it before its actually spend?

Ex: The US government prints money constantly but we can both agree on the fact that if I hold on to my $1 this week that it’ll still maintain it’s value for me to buy the same item for the same amount of money the following week (although new money has been added into the circulation)?

People are only mining for profit not for free service, because they have to pay bills to upkeep their operations. Now, if no one purchase Grin because it can’t uphold its value from day 1 to day 7 in dead stable market, what makes you think people will endlessly keep mining although they’re incentives (which only matters if people are purchasing grin, if no one buying you’re only holding a bag of dust)?

The dollar isn’t any less of a dollar because you print 10 more tomorrow, you’ll have to pay more of the dollar because the price of the same item goes up. Now with grin a dollar worth of grin is significantly less the next day and week etc because of the increase in supply PLUS the increase of prices, that’s a double negative.

From reading the different threads I guess infinite supply is suppose to make for a better stable currency. If that’s the case why not just make it a stable coin that fluctuate due to supply and demand so that it maintains its value? People want dollar, euro, pounds, tether, usdc etc because it maintains it’s value. Other’s want bitcoin because of scarcity, the potential of value it can INCREASE to.

As a merchandiser I wouldn’t accept a currency that’ll lose it’s value the moment its received after the pending of the transaction. Or if I just want to send money to a friend why will I send Grin by the time they receive and are ready to spend it’s significantly less and the longer they hold on to it the less it gets. Because I don’t know about anyone else but I don’t immediately spend my money the second I receive it.

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Grin’s emission rate is stable. 1 Grin per second forever. You already know it’s going to hyperinflate for the first two years, and during the next decades it’s going to disinflate into an emission curve that is very close to gold’s emission curve. In the long run, Grin is actually deflationary. In comparison, the USD emission rate is a joke.

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A constant rate doesn’t make it a stable currency. Deflationary(that’s assuming the assumption of lost coins percentage are accurate, which it’ll never be in reality, due to the space advancement along with it’s participants)

What currency market will it satisfied? It’s not a store of value or a medium of exchange.

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A constant rate doesn’t make it a stable currency.

Communities/societies make stable currencies stable, not emission curves per se. USD has the shittiest emission rate ever but as you pointed out already it’s more stable than crypto. I am not sure where are you getting at.

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108

Exactly and if my Grin will be less then when I purchased in a dead still market due to infinite supply why would I or anyone accept it as a currency?
The reason why the dollar maintains it’s value compare to Grin is because doesn’t matter if you print more dollars that one dollar is still 1 dollar, whereas when there’s more grin that 1 grin is worth .5 although it’s still represented as 1 grin.

And exactly why do you think community and society makes a currency stable or accept it as a currency in the first place?

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This is a cool idea, but wouldn’t that hyper incentivize and disproportionately reward early adopters, effectively disencentivizing any participation after the “big bang” event?

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Possibly, and I struggle to have any opinion on monetary policy. But I’ve always had the intuition that the mathematics of the universe are elegant and highly optimal (if not perfect) and that the greatest potential for any human system is to harmonize with them. Of course, understanding what this means is a life long quest, but I can’t help but feel that until we do, we are just taking shots in the dark.

The other possibility is chaos. And in that case, it doesn’t matter, generate the emission rate randomly. :thinking: That’s actually a very interesting thought…

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LOL bitcoin is down ~90% from a year ago… it is a rubbish store of value on that scale.

On the other hand grin’s emission rate has a lot less mystery to it (like what will happen when bitcoin hits 21 million? nobody knows), and will temper people’s ridiculous and unfounded expectations that one will ever be worth $20,000.

These could all conceivably mean grin may never experience a rise or a drop as dramatic as bitcoin (or even USD), and is an experiment toward a truly stable and useful currency.

Less printed than USD, but more than bitcoin, it is a happy medium, and honestly probably the most interesting sociological experiment out there right now.

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Yup, Just like the entire market is down from a year ago and Grin would’ve been as well but even for more so do to the double negative (large influx of supply added in circulation and speculation from the market going down). I really like this project and I’ve been following for sometime, but it seems as if reality has been lost at times. I don’t have the answer to what will be the right or perfect emission. But it’s best to question and fully understand the on one that’s is selected and it’s potential failure points.

The mystery of the 21 million of bitcoin, my answer to that is the mystery of how much gold in the world. No one knows but gold is still valued(countries selling debts for more gold) even tho its been on a downturn. And guess what, once there’s a impression of all the gold minted it’s value will only increase with time, common human psychology my friend.

Reality is Grin doesn’t create value (because it’s also created out of thin air) and only through adoption and scarcity (bitcoin) it could. Yes, USD is printed endlessly but it’ll maintain it’s value because of the government deeming it’s value (via regulation and other tactics). How will the Grin team bring value to it?

No one has really answered the questioned, as a business owner why will I accept Grin when I can’t store it in my business account without it losing it’s value because it’s affected by new Grin that will continuously be added into circulation (that’s not even considering when the market is in a downturn like the 90% bitcoin decrease you mention early)? There’s no adoption if it can’t be stored, if it can’t be stored then there’s no purchasing power, which makes it fail as a currency, even if it succeed in being the most private secure on the blockchian. These are the question that needs to be answered and not bush off by the technically of the technology. Because, the regular people don’t care about the technically, I just need to know my money is there. When the USD is printed tomorrow my dollar from 5 years ago will still be worth a dollar, not the case with Grin.

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if you had one dollar from five years ago, is is only worth 93.2% as much today. The dollar is only ever worth one dollar, but it is constantly going down in buying power. (https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/)

Just like a grin will only ever be worth one grin.

People will probably use it to transact, then exchange it for another currency (probably fiat) just like most people do with other cryptos, except grin will be better cash than other cryptos.

nobody keeps cash under their mattress as a very good form of savings, every year their dollars can buy less stuff. long term savings require totally different vehicles with different purposes and properties than cash.

because of the more transparent and easily understood economics of grin, it is not likely to have the same fluctuations as bitcoin. the last 90% downturn on bitcoin, if grin was the same age, would hypothetically not have affected grin nearly as much, since one grin would never have been speculated as being worth so much without reason. people are not going to hoard and speculate grin nearly as much, so the price should be much more reasonable and “natural”. The economics builds in utility versus speculative value. its mayvery well turn out to be the most interesting part of grin.

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And why is that? because the price of production or demand of goods has gone up right and not that the dollar went down? What type affect you think that’ll will have on grin when grin doesn’t create value but only add more to the circulation.

Yes one grin will only be one grin but the presentation and value won’t be. Unless grin will be a stable coin (tether, usdc, or etc) it’s not insusceptible to a crashing market, and that’s the reality of it.

Please explain to me how it’ll be a better cash if you can’t store it? They’ll use it to transact what? As a early adopter why will transact with someone who has grin when i already know it’ll be less by the end of business day?

Hypothetically speaking it’ll take a even bigger hit then that of bitcoin. Why? because speculation is a real thing that happens in the market and as the price goes down there’s more grin being added at a high output. I’m sorry that’s the reality and there’s no way around it no matter how transparent or easily understood the economic of grin is.

Why are there use-cases build around any thing, because of the monetary gains right? So how will that happened with grin when you know it’ll significantly be less the next day?
So, please tell me this economic utility and please don’t say the privacy and transparency of it because that really means nothing. and at what point will the price be “natural and reasonable”. Because that requires people actually buying into it and holding it for a period of time (which you really can’t do).

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I’m confused as to why you would think grin will experience less speculative changes in value. Zcash had a constant emission rate since it’s genesis block and is down 90% from it’s peak. The same could be said about the speculation & volatility of bitcoin up to 2013, although that wouldn’t be as fair to compare as the initial inflow of money to bitcoin in it’s early stages were much lower than the inflows expected for grin.

I suspect you are all over-estimating the effects of a modest circulating supply inflation on speculation under the affect of an exponentially increasing public interest.

For some perspective, consider the fact that grin’s supply 8 years after it’s genesis block will be 33% more than bitcoin’s supply 8 years after it’s own genesis block (in real terms).

Speculation and volatility will be rampant at times and moderate at others, regardless of the emission curve. It is inevitable in this radically free, open, new market.

Nevertheless, let us all remember our ultimate goal; providing the ability to exchange value anonymously, globally & elegantly. In the grand scheme on things, the emission curve is nothing but a tool to reach this goal, and an infinite constant emission is certainly my favorite option for it’s never ending incentive to miners securing the network.

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If you trust yahoo news $300 billion US dollars about get printed in a year, but, more than 90% of that is to replace old bills. Even if just 1% are new, that is an influx of 3,000,000,000 dollars printed “out of thin air” as people say a year. That is more than the number of grin that will exist in 50 years. So they are actually producing more dollars every year from scratch, and this waters down the value of one dollar every year.

purchasing-power-of-the-us-dollar-1913-to-2013_517962b78ea3c_w1500.jpg1500×966 244 KB

In a hundred years the purchasing power of one dollar has gone from 1 to .05… five cents. Grin should never even approach that level of devaluatioin. Somehow many people still use the dollar. Lots of good reasons why, and grin can’t compete with many of them, it’s true. But it hopefully will be able to stand on its own as a sovreign currency.

Nobody uses the dollar to store their value. People uses stocks and property. That is not going to change. This is not an issue for grin, it’s not a problem grin aims to solve. Future confidential assets on the grin chain (or http://woke.mw) may be able to satisfy similiar to how bitcoin aims to be a store of value.

By the end of the business day it will have hardly changed, hypothetically. Just like the value of your car goes down every day, that hardly stops people from using it.

People don’t speculate on the value of a toyota corolla because the utility of it is clear… and that is where its value lies. Grin isn’t going to be very good for gambling, because as you say, it shouldn’t really go up wildly due to speculation.

Monetary gains are a very small reason to use something. And a very modern concept. People buy cars (even though they lose value every day) because it helps them get around and make money in other ways. People buy food because it makes them stronger and gives them energy to fuel their buisness activities. People should want to use grin because they want a secure way to transact. For example, TMGOX is going to use grin because it is a better way to send and receive funds, it will help grow our business for those reasons, and TMGOX will make more profits because of it. Not because we want to buy and hold something, but because we want to create value in other ways, grin just being a means to an end.

Buying and holding is a strange and unnatural concept (property being one of the only historical examples, and incomparable really to anything else). Get grin for goods, turn it into gold if you want to hold it long term. If you want to pay your employees or buy new goods, keep it in grin and do it quick. keep the economy flowing.

I also want to point out that gold has a linear emission… grin over time is more similar to gold than bitcoin is.

@Paouky zcash has the same speculative (and relatively mysterious) furvor of bitcoin with its capped supply. people speculate whether the idea of digitally severely-scarce things can replace or compete with physically scarce things like gold and prices act accordingly.

there is going to be speculation, no doubt, but it won’t have the same mysterious energy of something as new and untested as bitcoin, probably. one bitcoin could be worth a million dollars, so any price between $1 and $1,000,000 could be the right price, who knows! But grin is always going to be created and so there is a pressure not to hold, this causes people to think of the value of one grin right now, because they want to move it like a hot potato, instead of spending so much time imaginging what it will be worth in 20 years (hypothetically). Bitcoin should one day also hypothetically reach some kind of equilibrium, I think the hope is that grin manages just to find its natural value sooner. This may be impossible, as you say, due to the radically new market, but there is at least an opportunity to test the idea. Speculation has to happen on a shorter time frame for grin at the very least.

Great points, and I am definitely over-estimating the benefits of an inflationary supply for the sake of discussion. But i think the basic premise has some merit, even if it doesn’t happen as quickly as I am imagining.

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118

I agree with this. Coinbase rewards incentivize ongoing security of the network. The goal of the network is secure private tx (not a store of value). To me this means that the emission rate is a choice to sacrifice potential investment value for potential network security.

Also true. If people want safe stores of value they can buy bonds, index funds, property, or even Bitcoin if they want. Grin is not trying to solve that problem.

Furthermore, it seems reasonable that once wallets and atomic swaps become more viable you could create a wallet that automatically sets up “atomic” put and call options (say within a time window like 1week) so that you know you’ll have X amount of purchasing power to buy stuff or pay people at a needed future date. Not a perfect solution, but nothing is. With that in mind though, I think cross chain atomic swaps are going to be the “killer app” of Grin because they’ll allow people to transact securely and privately on Grin, but also convert to other tokens or stable coins when desired, and back, anytime, privately.

One more thing: is anyone working on “local Grins”? There’s local bitcoins, local ethereum, but a local grins would be great :slight_smile:

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Also key factoid is that most miners sell their bitcoin immediately after its mined, so the store of value thing is a moot point. Grin has no disadvantage as far as securing the network is concerned. I don’t have the source handy but it is partially common sense.

Also the new wallet announced today by @lehnberg and @jaspervdm wallet713 will have bitcoin atomic swaps built right into the wallet, so what you described will absolutely be the case. If you really believe the economics of bitcoin make it a better store of value (though really truly it is a bit early to conclude) you use grin as cash and bitcoin as gold. BOOM!

I think I saw someone working on a local grin thing. Maybe @lehnberg & @jaspervdm would be interested in collaborating with TMGOX to create the infrastructure. I am just a branding guy.

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Links to the (really cool) wallet project in case anyone’s too lazy to search for it:

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I really like your conversation!
I will leave this here:
https://docs.google.com/document/u/2/d/e/2PACX-1vS6j9bnA7mBfwBK5BUmlF8PWRyvmevYaDCx2fpFERVTAlb3nqLczNOfZOp5-Ct7TtQZfR-wsfkG0PLv/pub

mgbor This ecosystem how do you see it ?

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I actually appreciate your responses!

Many nations still us the dollar because of the strengthen of the government that’s issuing it. As mention early, those $300 Billions dollars that will be printed will theoretically devalued the dollar but not practically.
EX: Gas price of recently (corporate decisions). The same dollar is able to purchase more gas today then it was a year, 2 years, and even 3 years ago even tho it’s been “devalued”. That’s because purchasing power has more to do with supply and demand, consumer confidence, and corporate decision, as in the case with the gas. The companies decided to lower the prices (trump stands with saudi prince), and the result of that in Minnesota 3dollars can get you 1.185 gallon at a prices of 2.53 oppose to .867 gallon when gas was $3.46.

Monetary gains is actually a big reason and only reason to finance and everything relating to it. people work to take care of their family, you’re doing it for a gain to aid your needs.

So when TMGOX receive Grin you’ll automatically sell it for fiat? because once that happen it’ll take money out of the market in return bring the valuation down right? Same reason why bitcoin is crashing, because people are selling off. Because transacting in purchasing goods like usd or any other fiat, bitcoin (merchandiser accept it because of the store of value it has btw) it’ll need more then just a secure way to transact. Bitcoin is a secure way to transact, big corporations and ever ending advancement in tech makes US and fiat a secure way to transact. Again bring it back to my question how will the Grin core keep grin valuable, because the dollars maintain it’s value because of the government.

Buying and holding isn’t strange it’s part of our natural way of life. People work for money, you pay expensive and save(hold) the rest and spend at a later time, and grin will not change that way of our natural habits. Not everyone will mine grin people will have to buy grin (and they all will hold on to it which will bring the value up, unless someone wants to buy for a bit more). The mere fact that you have to do it quick shows a weakness of that currency

Why by grin to buy another crypto instead of the bitcoin etc you use to buy it unless there will be less transaction fee, but you would have already accumulated transactions first buying bitcoin and than buying grin, follow by another transaction fee of buying another crypto.
.

I’m all for trying something new and i’m rooting for grin…

No one knows exactly how many gold there is in the earth, if they did that means it’s already minted.

Sorry about the late response, been busy with work. This respond is all over the place sorry again.

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Stories are important, and no currency will be able to top that of Bitcoin’s inception. Grin gets relatively close, but still miles away.

The story Grin can exceed at, is one of a fair distribution. This is where Bitcoin’s narrative will forever be stained, and where Grin’s can shine.
This difference in narrative requires courage, but will likely turn out to be a rewarding one.

Just a quick thought I wanted to share.

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Agree 100% @Paouky. Any chance you could help us draft this narrative? Doesn’t have to be perfect, but just a baseline idea of what you had in mind would help a lot. Either a separate forum post or (even better) as a page on the wiki.

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