The following thread was just uploaded to the Telegram group.
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Thatâs awesome! I havenât been following the current dramas, I hope grin can be of use to anyone who needs it.
I went to a bitcoin focused crypto conference and had a great time at the conference and we all hit up the local bars afterward, I hope to crypto party with them again someday. 
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That proposal makes very limited sense. If bitcoin would ever embrace Mimblewimble (and thatâs a rather HUGE if), then it would implement something like MWEB or an actual sidechain. Atomic swapping to Grin offers no guarantees on preserving BTC value and is far from seamless as they take time and attention and can fail, while the exchange rate will keep varying over time and markets.
Even if Bitcoin would implement something like a MW side-chain, it would lack the linear supply of grin which is great for fairness, long term security and price stability. I mulled it over for quite a bit and came to the conclusion that it might be best for Bitcoin not to have any side chain (since it cannot be done securely I have been assured by countless Bitcoin wizards) and for Grin to stand on its own feet. Atomic swap would be a great addition for both Bitcoin and Grin since many will prefer Bitcoin as store of value for now while Grin is better as electronic cash. Also it is probably best that the value of Bitcoin and Grin stay independent. Bitcoinâs ever increase in value discourage its use as digital cash. Being able to exchange them freely could avoid trouble like them being frozen/or-worse like what happened on trade Ogre.
Your reply makes no sense at all.
The proposal is not about changing Bitcoinâs core protocol. MWEB/Sidechain: requires overwhelming consensus, a hard fork or complex trust system as you know better
Atomic Swaps: Require no changes to Bitcoin consensus rules. They are a non-custodial, interoperable tool.
Dismissing a working, trust-minimized solution in favor of a hypothetical, politically impossible one is illogical . I wonder why now.
This is a red herring. No cryptographic tool can âguaranteeâ market price. Why you make assumption about price of Bitcoin now ?
The value of an atomic swap is not to guarantee price, but to guarantee the property of fungibility and privacy. And you know it.
Imagine if Bitcoiners tought same primitive, early-stage version of every single Bitcoin-related technology, there wldnt be any progress. Btc was unusasble, very long confirmation time etc.
To dismiss a development tool (atomic swap) because its first-draft demo isnât seamless is like to ignore the entire history of Bitcoinâs own development. Doing nothing is your solution ?
This is not a valid argument, very bad argument for dismissing.
You invent an unsolvable problem of âprice guaranteesâ to distract from the solvable problem of "fungibilityââ guarantees, a possible tool - Atomic swap which Grin will be used as money.
This is not a technical then itâs tribal and political.
You were there, why you didnt ever say ââ preserving BTC value and is far from seamlessââ
again i say this is all about political political, not about cryptography- it is canary in the coal mine.
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Iâm sorry; I misunderstood the proposal, due to the misleading language:
Atomic swapping is quite different from having a side-chain or from covenant-based extensions.
The word âIntegrateâ also suggests making changes to Bitcoin itself.
Iâm all for allowing atomic swaps between BTC and Grin, but
filing an issue on the bitcoin node codebase doesnât seem to be the right way to go about it.
One of the major showstoppers in advancing Grin atomic swaps is the lack of a multisig RFC. Once that is established we can think of implementing multisig in grin wallets.
After that we can have an Atomic Swap RFC.
And only then would one seek out assistance on the Bitcoin side, but that would be more an issue for wallets than for bitcoin node.
In short, I think youâre getting ahead of yourselves.
Bitcoin wallets can offer atomic swaps with many other currencies; getting Grin included among them (a worthwhile goal) hardly constitutes Bitcoin âembracingâ Grin.
Ya his âsolutionâ has always been doing nothing.
I think grin is a digital asset,not cash,not electronic cash.we could say that,bitcoin is gold,grin is silver.girn and bitcoin is the same digital assat,despite the difference in valueă
What kind of rage bait is that ?
Itâs an open-source project, not a lifetime mission. We should be grateful for every contribution rather than targeting those who contributed the most.
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Ya so be grateful, I fixed the node with my pr
Bold. I would not say that.
Ya you wouldnât say that because you havnt made a pr that fixes the node. I have, but I donât hear you being grateful do I?
The main branch node canât even sync without stalling half way through. Mine does. Anyways this is off topic
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Excellent. Iâm glad weâve moved past the misconception that this is about propping up Bitcoinâs price.
Since you @tromp state youâve support atomic swaps from the beginning, letâs propose & establish a development bounty for the Multisig RFC firstly as you say.
[Grin Btc fund] (https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/address/bc1qmsy32rn6hu5vrelpfyqj52cmrpwwr690dkca6pefpw0p843urwnqws6d6v) is that for.
This way we can attract some technical attention, developers, contributors.
Blockchains are not museums for perfect code, or private gardens for a few.
A small, a few people controls the project is a single point of failure, it is against decentralization.
Inaction is a great risk now, We not just need only more Tromps; we need different minds, more eyes on code for security and development.
Grin Governance council has the members that can faciliate that.
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You make a single PR and youâre already here lecturing people that have been contributing productively for years? How about we keep our egos in check a bit ehâŚ
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This is probably one of the most important discussions weâve had recently. At least for the economic success of grin. Even if we donât consider it as an increase in value and liquidity, but rather as an increase in the community and users of grin. I understand that itâs a matter of time, but we need to make an effort and solve the problem. Letâs focus on spreading the information. Letâs gather everything in one place and create the future and the desired functionality. I want to emphasize that this is not from a position of asking, but rather from a position of giving.
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