Request for funding @paouky

Awesome. I think having a smooth/easy onboarding of new users to the idea is one of the key things to enable fast community growth. Grin is different than other projects which can make it hard to understand, but it comes with many benefits that other chains simply can’t have right now. So we definitely have interesting things to show, but right now, unless you’re a developer, you will probably have a hard time understanding the benefits (which is why I also vouched for something like Grin in pictures).

The way I see it is that node and wallet development MUST be secured first. In case we feel like we have enough, then funding the community work would also make sense. Growth of Grin only from the technical side won’t be enough imo, it needs the community to get people excited and investing their time to build projects around it.

I agree this work is important, but would need a clear plan of what the problem is right now and what kind of documentation we would need in the long run (for different levels of knowledge). If there would be technical questions around how grin works, they should ideally be answered once and then written down :slight_smile:

Thanks for taking the time to write this request :v:
I support it if we have enough money for development secured and if we define clear goals.

I am against all funding now until someone makes a GUI wallet, I just installed version 4.0 for myself and was horrified at how bad everything is.
I can’t even get my address, it constantly asks me for a password and then gives an error.
I cleaned the whole history, downloaded all the blocks again and the error still exists.

I hope you understand that your official wallet is completely non-working, a person will not bother with it and fix errors, no one needs it.

And you want to do documentation, who needs this documentation?

So if someone asks for funding, tell everyone no until a normal GUI wallet is made.

Translation and documentation does not cost € 1.5 thousand / month. If you lived in poor countries, you would understand that most people earn € 50 - 300 per month.

With such useless funding, your project will fail faster.

I do not think that someone else will send you 50 bitcoins

so I want to say start making a working version or you don’t have to rely on people to support it.
As a user, I am very upset by your project, in fact, grin has nothing but optimization of blockchain scaling now. And also a giant minus with money transfers.

I apologize for my clumsy translation.
hope you got what I meant.

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It would be great if you framed your opinion in a way that would not be so insulting towards the wallet developers. Wallets will stabilize and converge over time.

Regarding the funding amount, it depends a lot on where you live. It would be his full time job as a contractor which brings its own costs, so I doubt he would get 1.5k per month from it.

These are not insults, I write what I think, of course I can lie and be more friendly, but then you will not understand what I want to tell you.

do not be offended if it seems to you that I offended you this is not so.
If for me it was not important I would not write anything, silence is much worse than what I write.

For context, I live in a western economy and my request is 10% above local minimum wage.

i think that we need an updated documentation, and most important an onboarding for new users. CLI is cool but even with a good documentation, the average user won’t be interested and we will end up documenting stuff for developers. Still, update the documentation is important.

as an average user, i want to know :

  • what is grin ?
  • another private coin, what for ?
  • what makes grin so special ? (community funded, governance, general fund)
  • why not monero ? ( redundant question, how is it more scalable and light )
  • Grin is not an altcoin
  • Grin Monetary policies and how is it fair for users and miners ?
  • Any road map ? what are the possibilities ?
  • what GUI wallets are supported ? (Mobile First)
  • why do we need interactivity for transaction ? (simplify this new approach)

These are top questions i keep getting from friends and on twitter.

we can start from there and get more technical.

I support this funding request.

This is an excellent idea, but I also agree that for the time being the focus should be on improving the GUI wallet. I also support funding, although it’s not a priority, but it will have to be done at some point.

@Mokhtar This is a great list, it summarizes the introduction I had in mind. These are elementary questions that either lack decent answers, or they are hard to find.
Added your comment to the original post.

The CLI works fine for me and the password prompts are for your security. But this could be one reason why clear documentation could help. I am sure if you mention the issues you have in the correct places you would receive help.

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Probably wont surprise anyone that I understand you, lol. But in the case of your complaints, I think most of them can be addressed if you ask on keybase or telegram where it’s easier to answer your questions & troubleshoot (or maybe write your own forum post). The password thing just is and for me everythign works, maybe you are trying interactive mode, which is experimental? Either way, if you take your questions to another place they’ll be addressed

The grin wallet doesn’t have much of a function to write documentation, and who will read your documentation, tell me?

Users don’t read the documentation, they don’t even read the forum rules.
In 2020, the entire application should be intuitive.

If you need advice, start with the designer, not the documentation.

You don’t have to wait for someone to do something for your project and write a request for funding.

You can simply hire people on a freelance basis or on specialized resources.

If you do not know where to find specialists then I will tell you
https://gitcoin.co/ here you can hire programmers

https://www.freelancer.com/
Here you can create a competition for $1000 for designers, you will have at least 100 design layouts, the winner will receive a prize, and then you will work with them.

All my thoughts are justified, if you do not know or understand something, just ask, I will tell you.

1 Like

grin-wallet --help
find what you are interested in, say send and go
grin-wallet send --help
and it is all documented and this is the expectation of CLI, even in 2020.

I too think there should be a cross-platform GUI with same UX, but the CLI is fine with respect to expectations of CLI, imo

Also, I read the documentation until it was kind of out of date and realized I really should just be using the help command in CLI

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grin-wallet
Password:
Wallet command failed: Unknown wallet command, use ‘grin-wallet help’ for details

This is annoying though.
Seems it should have the help behaviour without any arguments?!
Or, for more concise output, just respond with

Missing wallet command, such as grin-wallet help

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FWIW I 100% agree that we need an intuitive GUI Wallet with one click install and super simple to use.

However, I disagree that it is as simple as hiring someone on Gitcoin or on some freelancers website. We will pay likely a lot for a wallet that will break at the next HF.

But that’s not at all the subject here and I don’t think we should halt everything until we have a GUI wallet.

@paouky very nice. Two questions:

  • Create a marketable, one-stop introduction resource for Grin. Can you details what is it in term of concrete deliverables?
  • Second part would be great. Do you have any idea how deep/technical you’d go. I can totally see that part as a month project or 4 months project based on how deep you go.

Thank you :slight_smile:

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@Paouky I support your request for funding. Your responses so far on the forum and on keybase are very clearly formulated and you have been around for some time. For this reason I think it is worth a shot to let you bring more clarity in the documentation regardless of your background

First of all I think having a non technocratic/core member to help with communication and documentation is a good idea. It takes a normal person to understand a normal person. The core is so much ‘immersed’ in the project that an outsider better understand the struggles of getting acquainted with everything Grin.

Secondly I like that you ask for a modest ammount. I do not think all require the 10k/month funding the core members get.

Thirdly, if we do not like your work, the funding can simply be discontinued without any significant loss of funds since your request is modest. Be warned though, if you promise full time work, that is the output we expect.

Regarding @Pirat feedback, he has a point. Maybe start with making a very simple step by step tutorial on how to install the Grin node and wallet and the commands to use them. I just tried for 10 minutes but got irritated with not seeing a clear tutorial on how to install and run the grin core wallet. This should not be the case. Anything that appears to you as illogical or difficult, provide it as feedback to the core so they can make using Grin a smoother experience for old and new users.

As @quentinlesceller suggested, better list the objectives. You can use the funding request template as guideline:
https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin-pm/blob/0ca49e6b06ff096c41f9b47c8630d3875fda8b48/financials/funding_request_template.md

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Regarding the second part @quentinlesceller, here are several examples of things I wouldn’t wouldn’t go into: intricacies of replay/play attacks and solutions, subtle cryptographic-documentation, dev API doc etc. Basically, I’ll go as deep as a very advanced learner-user would venture, but not as far as to the detailed technical implementations. Let me know if I should provide specific example references from our current docs.

As for the first part, my inspiration initially was https://learnmeabitcoin.com/.
That website is far from perfect: It has bad aesthetics, it assumes no prior knowledge of crypto (which isn’t necessary for grin), it’s incomplete. But the concept is great. I’d like to build something in line with that spirit, a kind of a default ‘beginner landing page’.

Here’s a quick jekyll mock-up to illustrate:

Even though I love the idea of a non-intimidating (separate) resource to learn from, it might be better to have EVERYTHING in the official docs, I’m not sure yet. But either way I could just add whatever I write to both the docs and the website as it’s all simple markdown.

Also thank you @Anynomous for your great comment.
I agree that if for w/e reason my work doesn’t satisfy, the power is in your hands.
Regarding the grin node and wallet and how to use them, It’s actually already work-in-progress. I had the same struggle initially.

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This is an outstanding idea. You get all 0 of my votes.

If all goes well, I highly recommend applying again to document our protocol. I could help point you to the areas it’s most needed. I sincerely believe that if we had solid documentation, our exchange issues would go away.

Btw, a solid technical writer is easily worth 3-4x what you’re asking, so kudos for the modest request.

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You seem like a good writer. You proposal was well written. I don’t have money to give you, but I appreciate your enthusiasm and I wish you luck.

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This request was approved in the latest governance meeting, with the adjustment of payments being done on a monthly basis: https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin-pm/blob/master/notes/20200728-meeting-governance.md#decision-approve-paouky-funding-request

Payment for the first month has gone out, spending logs have been updated.

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