I agree that we should talk about why privacy matters, however, I think privacy is the wrong “focus” for Grin. Other projects(Monero/ Zcash) already do a better job of privacy.
Grin should take the approach that Privacy is a given, it’s not an “opt in” and every interaction should be private by default. That way we are not directly competing with the likes of Monero, we are supporting them by showing that privacy should be the “standard” not the exception. We are much better off trying to help the adoption aka the standardization of privacy coins.
Grin will take the “Satoshi vision” approach. Eg that Grin is a global P2P currency that can be used by everyone. However, the point of difference( The blue ocean strategy) is that Grin utilizes Atomic swaps and confidential assets so it functions more like a “base currency” for every currency or Asset class. This is how adoption happens.
I agree. It is not a product. It is a feature. And it *should be implied. It is with Grin–but it is a chord we can use. Privacy is integral to our universal currency system. Regular people should know why. And, as impossible as this may sound to you, we can make it cool–to use Grin. We have to dig through conversation to find big ideas. And I agree with you. We should talk more. You have a lot of to communicate. Nobody understands Grin and we need to teach them what it is. You just communicated it effectively. Please keep this note, or I will. We should write together about Grin.
Re: privacy - if this feature is translated through our interfaces and touch points delightfully, in a calculated way, it will move the needle for Grin. We won’t pursue ideas that don’t drive business consequences for Grin. That goes the same with intangible value as we design this layer. Our presentation needs to produce an affect; it must make people want to use Grin. That was what it was intended for.
Privacy is still a core tenet of this meaning system. It is designed with privacy by default for a reason. I just watched @lehnberg give his talk and he made this point. This was design with intent.
Privacy also connects to everything else so well, Ignus, and the invisibility cloak, and his views expressed at Grincon regarding privacy and his motivation for starting this project. I need this information so we can make privacy cool. It is meaningless to people. They live openly now. Like addicts.
We can ascribe new meaning for privacy with Grin. All of Grin’s functional qualities that transform (impact your life) should be understood to the lowest common denominator. Grin has to matter to people if we want them to use it.
if this child is to be accepted into the world to fulfill its purpose, we need to give Grin its voice so that it can communicate with people. We will find interesting things through these conversations. We need to get people talking about their views and how they see these qualities. Ultimately, how they see Grin, because we need to distill this into a language people understand, and that moves them to use Grin.
It is a dimension. And it is a part of this narrative that should be developed to serve us. Just saying we have privacy means nothing, I agree. People are not concerned with that. But we can manufacture the effect we want with how we communicate these things and visualize them at the product level. This is a creative process.
Privacy is a basic human right. So, I’m somewhat reluctant to promote privacy as a “feature”, since in my opinion, privacy, is a “necessity” and necessities should not be features- At least not when trying to promote a project.
I do agree with pretty much everything you’re saying and understand where you’re coming from. At the end of the day, privacy is a core “feature” of Grin and must be an integral part of any universal currency system. However, what I’m trying to convey is that it’s not the “primary feature”. Even if you disagree with that, then I would still argue that “privacy” is not the best way to create desire/ adoption of Grin. I would also like you to consider that perhaps the best way to promote privacy is to do so indirectly.
Give them privacy without them even asking for it, then see how they feel when someone tries to take it away.
As you have alluded to, privacy does not currently matter to everyone and is a weak value proposition for most of the world. We want users to value privacy like they value free speech:
“Saying you don’t need privacy because you have nothing to hide is like saying you don’t need free speech because you have nothing to say”
We can help by educating the world on why privacy matters, however, it’s going to be a slow process. Most people need to figure this out for themselves.
“You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him/her drink”.
Grin has the potential to become a popular global P2P currency without most of the userbase truly valuing privacy. However, eventually “the rest of world” perspective will change, and users will start valuing privacy like you and me. This is when many will have that “ah-ha” moment and realize that privacy matters and privacy is what makes Grin great.
Grin needs to be positioned in the right place at the right time to ensure this happens, we don’t want to be stuck in trenches behind Monero and Zcash.
Privacy is a fragile ideal, people forget how important it is when they have it.
We need “Charleston fences” to preserve it; and people are fairly wired to value them(constitutions, religions, or even oral histories about gods being idiots and dying for it). We just need new ones and get a bit of an aesthetic on it.
For thousands of years we have had and used various private means of exchange. This was only really changed post internet.
Now convenience trumps something that we have evolved to take for granted.
I think with the advent of the internet, this all changed, and I feel like a good way to describe the lack of care for privacy is: you don’t know, you don’t know, until you know. I feel like people are starting to know, step one. I feel like more people will start to take action on what they know, step two. The people from step two will make it convenient for those yet to know, step three.
This, in my opinion, will bring it back to being the norm.
No, we do not have to “manufacture desire”, and I doubt anyone cares to give you a sales pitch. EVERYONE cares about privacy. You’re only lying to yourself in thinking they, or you, don’t.You want to be taught a lesson in privacy? Feel free to post the login credentials for your online accounts.
The intent of Grin is to use. Nobody uses crypto. Hodling is not using. It gets us nowhere. We are in a game.
In order for crypto to be more than an endless casino, we need to get outside of this place. One of these projects needs to penetrate the world in a consequential way, otherwise all Grin is is another chip at the casino.
Beam is modeling intelligently to get into the world. “Design For Mankind” is their MO. They have all kinds of advantages we don’t have. The conversation you are participating is a constructive one to help advance this project.
This is not correct. Nobody cares is the point or they would not be doing what they are doing. You go strait to the extreme. We need balanced discussion here. At some point there needs to be a reason to use “better money.” We will find an answer through this process, which in any other case, would be handled by people with background to to this. We are not doing it that way. So I hope you can see the value here. Grin has to shine in this space. And it has to reach the world. Or this is pointless.
Anybody who cares about their base of speculation is making plans to advance materially in the world. This conversation is a step towards modeling effectively so they we have a shot at that. We don’t have the same kind of advantages other projects do. We have the worst emission model for speculators at the highest point of uncertainty. By design. Because we are solving problems and blazing a new trail.
Grin is meant to enter the world one day, which is why we are having these discussions.
If you don’t want to participate, that is fine. But this is getting done here. I am making sacrifices so that I contribute. Bring something to the table, or don’t engage.
Regardless of the philosophical arguments for why privacy matters, I think a perfectly valid argument is that it is necessary for fungible for cryptocurrencies. Are there any counter arguments for a possible fungible cryptocurrency that is not private?
You clearly have strong views about privacy, so it would be valuable if you just took the time to share them. It would be very valuable if you shared these views for the people who are trying to communicate what Grin is at the product level, because pretty much nobody really knows.
Speculators are with us for the moon lambo mission right now. We want them to be with us for the mission that we’re actually on.
@kargakis spotted it early. It is a very inspiring story. Grin is very special. It’s the first one you will actually use.
There will be many conversations here that attempt to extract information from this community in creative dialogue. I am relying on you, @BoSanti to be a part of that. We can butt heads and value will come from that.
Beam? Not only is this conversation not constructive, it is a joke. This is not a game, this is all about extremes, fundamentals, and pushing the envelope. Your balanced discussion is more like the sludge of mediocrity. Privacy and fungibility are necessary components of freedom, and to transact freely. There is no need to convince anyone of anything. A need will grow organically, or it will not grow at all. To say that nobody uses crypto simply shows how far behind you are in any understanding.
What are some of these things
And we will explore all of them. Grin needs teachers, and you are clearly one of them.
You will get used to it. Empathy is needed to communicate Grin effectively. It’s hard to have empathy.
There absolutely is.
People need to understand what Grin is. So that they use it. And faster than 50-100 years. Like @0xb100d anticipates. Because that thesis also greatly underestimates experience designers. Which are here now, and this information in crucial. I am learning from you. You are helping. It would yield more value if you were doing it willingly.
This is a 24 hour online Vegas casino. It is absolutely a game. Grin is getting off that ride and taking a step forward. Which is why its interesting and worth everybody’s time.
That is like releasing a product and having the expectation that people will just find it and use it because it is useful. That is not a strategy. The decentralized teams building the experiences around Grin, the human interfaces–they need this information. We have to communicate with people. It isn’t easy either. So this process is very necessary for us. Let’s try and work together to create value.
@0xb100d Do you want to tell him exactly how many people crypto has reached. That is the difference here @BoSanti Grin is meant to use. It is the dollar replacement. Not a casino chip. I want to get Grin into the real world one day. I want to impact the population of earth with one of these creations at some point in our lifetime. Less than 1 half of 1 percent of the population of this planet that has access to the internet has touched this stuff.
That is not even the correct figure. Mic drop.
Designers have empathy. That’s how things grow. Because we have a strategy. Nobody builds an application and waits for people to come. We are limited by our resources, so we design with intent. Like Grin.
I don’t understand how Bitcoin puts the conversation to shame. Nobody uses it. For anything but speculation. That’s all this whole thing is. Now Grin, which is tuned to use. When Grin gets into the real world it becomes the universal currency system that Bitcoin sought to become though SOV to MOE thesis.
Untouchable sovereign currency was Bitcoin’s mission. Now its mission is the moon. Grin and Bitcoin are two seperate things that will not compete Bitcoin/money Grin/currency.
Unfortunately Grin isn’t modeled to feed on human greed like Bitcoin is. We don’t have that advantage here. So we must create our own.
which is also a possibility, and why we are having these discussions. The person you are talking to called Grin the Titanic. I am well aware of the liquidity trap ahead and what conditions would create it. I also know what our challenges are in the real world with attention economics being how they are. We are modeling for all of this. Because unlike the Titanic, we are aware.
That is what we are focusing on. How do we compete with no strategy at such an extreme disadvantage when we are sandwiched between, and surrounded by more attractive speculative vehicles? We are trying to lift Grin above the rest. We cannot do that without the communication layer, which is being created and will materialize though these conversations.
Privacy is also important from a legal standpoint.
Only private coins are truly fungible. Each bitcoin has a history and governments may try to paint some of them as ‘illegal’. That cannot happen to grin even if they want it.
Governments can also try to make mining transaction to/from certain addresses illegal. Again that is simply not possible in GRIN.
I am not convinced that these are real threads to BTC since there are hundrets of ways around them. But in GRIN these do not come up in the first place. Since a GRIN is just a GRIN and each GRIN is identical since it does not have a history.
We all know that when people’s privacy gets shattered, it is not because someone has broken strong cryptography. It is wrong to believe that any cryptocurrency can “give” privacy. Privacy, just like power is something people take, implement, it is not given – if some Grin user’s privacy gets compromised, I bet it will have nothing to do with the strength of cryptography, MW, blinding factors or Alice…
Privacy starts with education about a process to give people the knowledge about how to implement it.
How many are mining Grin on centralized pools (that’s how most Grins are produced anyway…) ? Then how many are offloading their Grins on centralized exchanges? How many are storing their Grins on rented VPS? They must be fine since they are using Grin, MW, blinding factors and Alice…
Like these users that have used PGP on a public Wi-Fi in a Starbucks just under the CCTV camera… If we let people believe that the tools, they use give them privacy we contribute to do wrong… The word “dog” does not bark.
Privacy is about educating the user to give them the ability to implement it all the way, so it does not start with Grin and does not stop there either.