Dismantling the core team and governance structure

Hi all, I like to add some suggestions to the dialog. Since governance has been extensively discussed I will leave that to the current contributors. Personally I like to zoom in on the usability of our coin economy and how it can be motivated to create more adoption. One of the bullet points Lehnberg addressed is the little enthusiasm of community members and resulting contributions. I believe this can be solved and motivated by spending some of the donations budget which is available. Imho GRIN can benefit from some “paid” jobs. We need a community manager that can network and organize. With this I mean, we need network tools that can motivate the right adoption, and these tools need to be developed. For instance, where is our turn-key eCommerce toolset? Where is my payment plugin in the WordPress repository? I want to integrate payment modules into my websites. These need to be created and David “plusplus” can not create everything. Instead of inviting developers asking for funding requests we could organize hackatons and offer prizes that value the contributions. After cool tools have been created they need to be maintained and further developed and for this we can use the funding request philosophy. But community activity like this needs to be managed. We need a catalyst-alizer, a person who has vision of what tools our ecosystem needs and who has the skills of communication and organization to pull this off. Such a Community Manager also needs to receive a form of compensation for his or her time. We need more FUN in the community instead of all the longbeard coding smartness. We need a merchandise web shop that actually works. Not one that sells dissapointment by offering items which are not on stock anymore or faulty out-of-date php errors which makes it impossible to add anything to the shopping cart at all. So I foresee and see many and numerous “jobs” and positions that need to be filled in order to get this show moving.

I am available and with my 20 years of eCommerce experience absolutely equipped to run a Community Mgr position as described above. Other candidates might be even more equipped and if so I welcome them. In the end, bottomline, I wish this project to succeed and not to just be a springboard for other coin systems.

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Currently, on coinmarketcap and coingecko, the discord invite links are dead. There is a link to a twitter account that is suspended and a link to grin-fans.org which leads to errors.

How grin is represented for users and followers is an area where some centralization may help to lead to a more consistent (better) experience. Deadlinks and confusion around the authority of certain information sources can look dodgy for users and also make users more vulnerable to scams. A project with a fully centralized setup would probably have an easier time to keep these things up to date and streamlined.

I think that grin and any other crypto project should try to find balance between centralization where decentralization is disadvantageous from a user’s perspective and decentralization where it is advantageous. There needs to be a way to intervene if corruption occurs though.

It’s not as simple as that. Efficient centralization can’t really happen with a project that has no company or revenue stream. We have no choice but to be as decentralized as possible if we wish to survive and perhaps thrive one day (wouldn’t have it any other way).

You see something wrong? fix it. Contact Coingecko and CMC yourself and don’t wait for somebody else to do the work. This is what Bitcoin and Grin are about. Nobody has special status, everybody can do anything. If we don’t adopt this reality, the future will be bleak.

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What would stop me from setting up a scam discord that links to malicious versions of the wallets and tell them that this is the new invite link? Sure, ideally they’d double- and triplecheck the links, but if there is one trusted main contact, that would make their lifes much easier. Similarly, I think that one “official” twitter account that follows certain standards would be more beneficial than having a community that tries to “crowd market” a coin. Exchanges probably prefer to have one trusted contact over having random community members talking to them.

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I think the philosophy has been so far to not come up towards ecosystem, actively propose help or networking a bit to build efficient process and friendly relation, but rather to let people come to us.
The latter can work well when there is a good degree of hype + reputation, but this is not the case since more than a year.
So I tend to agree with you and that we should re-think our philosophy with regards to approach people and companies within the ecosystem to help them with understanding grin and make it more serious and visible to the eyes of the people. This is necessary to bring new active people to the community, or at least i think it could help. I think it could be done without sacrifying anything at all in the neutrality and principles that underline grin and its philosophy. So I support what you guys are saying and would not personnally be against funding someone that loves Grin and could bring good, professional, active, fun and efficient interaction towards the grin community and also the broader ecosystem.

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Continuing the discussion from Dismantling the core team and governance structure:

I just want to add a few notes which I found useful regarding the consensus and the centralization/decentralization trade-off. I am a bit slow to write and I don’t have too much time, so I will summarize some points that are important to me, rather than a detailed writing.

As far as I know, to achieve a general consensus a blockchain must hold at the same time three different types of consensus:

unnamed

Consensus about the rules

This kind of consensus regards the general rules about the protocol such as the emission rate, the block size, the time between blocks, the consensus algorithm, etc. This is mostly a matter of developers, or at least, of whose able to understand the protocol at a technical level and can write code – code is law. Other participants can only partially interact with this consensus.

But, because it’s based on cryptography, thermodinamics, economics and code, when the system is ready, there won’t be necessary too much changes, if the protocol is aligned with principles. Indeed, this is why I suggested developers to strenghten principles, before other forces come in:

  • without security we cannot have value (with this regard, someone can explain me why Rust is said to be more secure than C++ and other languages? And also which problems arise on consensus compatibility when there are more implementations?).
  • without freedom we cannot have the three basic human rights, to move, speak, exchange (censorship).
  • without privacy we cannot have fungibility, then we cannot have cash.
  • without simplicity less skilled people would be cut off, so the protocol would be less fair and inclusive.
  • without fairness the entire “cake” shrinks and people would prefer to use other systems.
  • without inclusivity the system closes in on itself.
  • without decentralization, we cannot have securece in the long term.
  • without scalability we cannot have decentralization and mass adoption.
  • without altruism donations are not possible and we would remain stuck in voting systems (which are interesting, but the prof of work is itself a voting system, where property of keys is the identity, and the work of machines is the right to decide).

Of course, this is the most difficult task, because what are value? Security? Freedom? Privacy?.. How they can be traslated into the protocol? They can be seen as trade-offs, because tied with subjectivity of people. This is what makes the discussion so difficult, without considering that each trade-off requires an high level of knowledge in really different fields.

A possible approach to mitigate the asymmetry of knowledge could be something circular. If developers can focus on strenghtening the rules and the principles at the protocol level, while the community’s participants focus on learning, observing where the project is going, and on creating new services, there would be less burden between both parts.

The community could make its voice heard, produce documents, debate about important questions while making readible content for others, whereas developers could look at the documents produced by the growing environment and decide the trade-offs to implement through rules. Knowing which are the rules and why they exist is the prerequisite for agreeing with them.

Consensus about the history

This consenus is related to who owns the coins, that is, the transaction history. In other words, how the property of the keys is exchanged along time between participants and stakeholders (who have skill in the game). Indeed, distribution of coins is another thing that is important to consider in the long run, because it will determine the supply and demand side of the price equation at some point. So who are the actors involved in the protocol and in the distribution of coins?

  • developers
  • miners
  • mining polls
  • community
  • wallets
  • exchanges
  • merchants (price taker)
  • entrepreneurs (new services)
  • investors (hoarder)
  • speculators (price makers)

All these components should work synergically and all should take part in some way in the consensus process, while following rules and principles. Importantly, they should have a secure way to possess grins throughout the distribution. At the moment, people have these options to acquire coins, and probably they all should be refined.

  • mining: this is a good and private way to have grins, but not everyone have the skills or experience to invest in this business. Only developers can access this, furthermore, future ASICs add uncertainty for miners.
  • exchange buy: buying at exchanges is feasible and in the future probably more exchange will accept grin. However, it is not private and it is risky (Kucoin has been recently hacked) because you have to rely on a third part.
  • sell products/services: you can produce and sell products or services for grin, but for now I don’t see this feasible. There are problems with trust in this kind of exchanges and I guess they need an underlying structure to work.
  • accept donations: last but not least, people could accept donations for their work. I think this option is often undervalued. It could be private and reflects the interests of the community while resolving the problem of the general fund. Indeed, I suggest to use some resources to build tools that are secure, private, easy and free to accept donations (something similar to BTCpay server).

Consensus about value

This consensus is the consequence of the first two types of consensus. When people agrees on rules and on history, the coins start to gain value. This depends mostly on the product fit that the protocol satisfy and/or its usabilty, which in the case of grin I think is money.

All the three type of consensus are weak for grin. However, this could be an advantage right now because nobody is caring about grin and the “wasps’ nest” is focused on other things. This gives the possibility to build a solid infrastrucure and distribute grins without being compromised by influential forces. These times are also great because there is not too much speculation, so people interested in grin can concentrate on other things rather than price.

Sub-teams

Premise: For those interested in creating a group, here you can find something useful for the formation of sub-teams.

@Anynomous I would be happy to be a part of a sub-team and I like the name! But there is a spell that is less privacy invasive? :grin: Don’t know, something like the “informous spell” for example. Also because, I don’t know if quantify wants or needs is possible, and because I don’t think money should be driven by community’s needs, but rather by its functions.

However, I like the idea! what I was thinking about is something similar, something that can be useful for the community. Regarding surveys and polls I was thinking to ask generally about the willingness to contribute, skills, expertise, important principles, etc., so that, as you said, there is a clearer direction and vision.

I think that there are a lot of people that don’t know what to do, and asymmetry on knowledge prevent them to act. Also because there is too much to know and topics are very difficult, but this is where a community can shine! Every help can make the difference.

With this in mind, I am trying to make a site with Hugo and blogdown, containing more detailed articles about these topics. Writing in R markdown is also suitable for scientific papers and I found it good. Now I will have to start filling it, when it is ready I will upload it online.

Unfortunately, I have not too much time because I’m starting a new job, so it will take time. I would continue to write on weekends on this website (I do what I can) about my idea to gradually bring more decentralization and other stuff.

Feel free to add things on the lists or correct me!

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On the consensus layer there is no problem using another language as long as the majority of the nodes runs a secure=trustworthy/non-exploidable nodes. Think of Rust as C++ (efficient, fast, low level programming language) with the added benefit that memory is managed more securely than in C++. Many great libraries have been written in C++ which makes the risk of running into memory overload exploits smaller, however, there always is some risk. Rust was chosen with this in mind because in theory, one would expect it to outperform and out-compete C++ on the long run (decades). Others like David chose pragmatism (faster to build with the wide C++ code base, need for GUI wallet) over the long term benefits of Rust, hence Grin++ was born.

Yes, that part also troubled me, revelio is another option but informous works for me, we can brainstorm about it one time. For now our challenge is to find time to brainstorm about a community questionnaire and the medium to use. For me the purpose is just to map the wants and needs of the community. This information can be used by the council but is in no way binding or forcing the direction Grin as a project should take. I hope it will spark enthusiasm because community members will identify shared passions.

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