Request for funding @jaspervdm, Nov-Jan 2020/21

I am not against this funding request for two reasons: I stand by my original defense of his absence and do not think a single event (unless egregious, which this does not appear to be) should hold a lot of weight. The other reason articulated by @lehnberg #5, we have no choice. I also think his contributions to grin have been indispensable and all the devs deserve their share of the funds.

That being said, the situation and the optics of the situation are not ideal and certainly merit a discussion. It would seem wrong to be entirely silent about the situation. Which leads to @lehnberg #2 scenario:

This seems very flawed and as if you are suggesting there is no mechanism for enforcing accountability (and no need for it). Clearly, if you do not deliver the community will require answers, certainly if communications and funding requests continue. Accountability comes here, but it is complicated with core/council members as they have voting rights on each others funding which creates an unavoidable conflict of interest. I think trusthworthy individuals with high integrity would feel obliged to uphold their word to the best of their abilities and take responsibility for any failures. This is referring to the odd stance that there is no one to answer to and no mechanism for accountability and not to suggest that Jasper doesn’t fit the description of a trusthworthy individual.

This seems off because there was no request to take a leave of absence. Maybe if Daniel is the boss of all funded individuals and their progress reports are sent directly to Daniel this would make sense. But I think no one wants that, which means communication to the community would be the only logical mechanism for communicating the leave of absence.

This also doesnt add up because the request to remove him was made by a core/council member and it remained on the agenda as such. If I recall, Jasper’s reappearance was at that very meeting. Not so sure why so many backdoor conversations have to occur and who is privy to what (this concern extends beyond this specific topic).

The progress reports are smaller and less informative than those from everyone else. Maybe they are sufficient, I was more concerned with public discussions in total. Similar to the topic above, it appears that he has had a lot of technical conversations about what he is doing with Antioch. Maybe they are referring to their comments on the github PR, but it is just unclear how many core/council conversations occur in private that are not private in material (strictly referring to topics that would be appropriate for the grin community).

My concern remains and I will pose it as a question:
What are reasonable metrics for rebuilding trust and were they met? Is it sufficient to reappear the day you are being removed from council, do what you were paid to do 5 months ago, and request your new funding before finishing the time remaining on the prior funding?

I honestly do not know the answer to those questions but the latter feels like “no” even though it seems unfair to say “no” if I cannot answer the first question.

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If you’re taking money from an open source project then you’re accountable to an open source community. Surely this is common sense? At the end of the day Jasper not publicly communicating with the community about his absence was poor etiquette. Let’s not sugar coat it. Pubic communication is like best practices 101 for anyone working on an open source project.

Remember that time Igno only communicated with members of that council that he needs to be away for personal reason and would be absent for a few months, possibly more…Well It kind of seemed like that for awhile.

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Thank you for your services. Considering the fact that you were absent the most of the time I don’t think there is any benefit in continuation of the funding.

I wish you best of luck.

I have to agree with the comments made by @johndavies24 @Neo.

But I’d like to echo a few statements.

Therefore, it would be in the best interest of the project to accept his request, yet it doesn’t mean trust has been completely re-established. As much as Jasper is talented, capable and nice (which we all agree on), this is simply the reality. There was a worrying lack of communication. However, in light of the circumstances; we can, shall, and should grow past that.

I support this request :star2:

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I suggest that he personally say something about this. @jaspervdm

September / oktober / november that is 3 months. He should request fund for: December January and February. Please get your months right.

I understand that free money can be easily given away as if it is nothing, but 10.000 euro in the Netherlands is enourmous number. For example our prime minister ( president ) is earning 6000 euros a month for being there and active 24 hours a day Jasper: https://github.com/jaspervdm

I know that grin can use jaspers help, but I am convinced that 4500 euro a month should be more then enough and fair also. In the end this is a opensource project not a milk cow that needs to be drained quickly. And if someone should earn a bigger reward then it is lehnberg for all of his work.

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Just to be clear, his last funding request was March, April, May and it seems as if he left around mid April. Again, I’m not exactly sure what constitutes rebuilding trust, but I don’t think it makes sense to restart the clock on his last funding (by not allowing another request until Dec as you suggested).

We’ve also gone over the amounts requested many times and the 10k amount is fair. Sure there could be some regional variation but nothing like what you’re suggesting. Also, as Daniel noted, lots of things that a real job would provide do not exist here.

However, I hope those that get to vote on funding and have a conflict of interest do not remain publicly silent until voting day comes. This would further the concerns of their private chats and backroom deals.

The Community agrees that @jaspervdm is a valuable asset, he’s committed on bringing the hardest and coolest stuff that we all want to see in Grin, it is fully understandable the fact that he had to take some time, nobody is condemning him, we all humans. @jaspervdm doesn’t have to give any explanation regarding his personal life and he’s back… now, this decision should nonetheless remain rational, and should not constitute in any way a precedent for the future; I think we should not ignore that the Community is hurt and needs to heal, a decision regarding this, at least now, could be misinterpreted by the Community members.

In my opinion, the amount is fine, the committed work is fine too, I would like to have @jaspervdm back again for a long time period, honestly I do, but please, take your time, maybe one or two months could help regain the Community trust.

I personally have the feeling that a lot of comments come from people ( general ) that are totally out of touch with reality when it comes to money and salary payments and how much someone should earn or get, and trying to ignore some of the facts. (?)

In the old days we would work for the value of our assets we owned from the project. The more people did for the project, the more the asset becomes valuable ( with a bit of luck )

A few things to look at:

1: https://github.com/jaspervdm 13 contributions since september 7th until october the 8th

1.1: Request for funding @jaspervdm, March-May 2020

8 september he posted for the first time again ( scroll down )

so the funding request should for the months: December / January / February ( correct me if i am wrong. )

2: Stop paying people upfront, but pay each month. (?) This will motivate more and you will get at least valuable feedback back in order to get your next payment. No more instant disappearing or waiting what happened.

3: You can never ever compare peoples salary/work on blockchain / open source projects with working for a company. First of all working for projects like Grin gives you absolutely freedom, no boss, you pay no taxes ( in the netherlands when you get paid in bitcoin ) and the only obligation you have is doing what you like the most.

4: I bet jasper will accept lower payments also, like mentioned in 3, but for some reason 10.000 usd has been widely been accepted and debated and therefore being used as a standard number for the requests. I think it is always good to debat this more and read what open source is all about:

5: next week this funding request will be approved anyway, but at least i wrote my part and hopefully someone will read this in the near future and agrees a bit with me. Hello future reader.

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Wow, a lot of old discussion come back here :sweat_smile:.

  1. What should a Grin developer earn Yes there has been a lot of discussion what a Grin developer should earn. We discussed this a couple of months back and agreed that there is no easy standard. Indeed for Dutch standards 10.000 dollar is a lot, for US standards it is normal or even low for high end software engineers. Also different opinions exist on whether a high salary is good or bad in an open source project. Lets keep that a separate discussion, or continue it where it was last time:
    "Devs are paid too much"
  2. The payment: itself should be fine if someone delivers what he or she promises. I understood Jasper did commit what he had planned to commit. In the end payment is for doing work on the project, as long as he came through on that “trust” in Jaspers capabilities should be there.
  3. Trust in the person. Communication is key here. Many times in the past at some level “trust” has been temporary lost or disagreement has existed because of poor communication. Actually it is mostly just a feeling than very objectively problem. Therefore let’s decide to make it a habit to communicate leaves of absence or other major disruptions to the community. This can be done without giving any details on the reason, just a heads up for the community should be fine.
  4. Accountability Everyone who receives funding is and should be held accountable. Jasper is no exception. Some improvements can be made on standardizing how people are held accountable. Biweekly updates I think is a good start, so again, communicate is key.

Lastly, let us avoid dramatizing the whole thing and losing to much energy where it could have been spend better elsewhere. There is a hard fork to prepare and Jasper did not commit any major crimes, he delivered what he promises. let’s just give him a scolding for being a lazy communicator and ask him to do a better job next time to avoid “losing trust” . If there will more drama, maybe we should change the logo :joy:
:grin: => :cry:

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Dramatizing(?), i think it is good to debat it without naming it to try stop further discussions. Some people do care, others less.

@siNix Do not get me wrong. If it feels like a underplay the different opinions expressed here, I apologize, that was not my intent. I agree that this discussion is good and yes there is much to improve on how people are held accountable. But I noticed that sometimes in the past Grin discussion became nearly an emotional thing.
My message therefore was to try to avoid that. Stay happy, stay grinning, but do stay critical and express your opinions and views. Verify, do not trust.
(Basically I was trying to put a lighter note to the discussion, I guess I failed miserably :joy:)

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Where you stated very concerning things like suggesting there is no accountability or need to enforce accountability for individuals receiving funds. You have chosen to not clarify these alarming statements, among others. Maybe you just meant no accountability for those who get a vote on your funds? Maybe you meant no accountability for those in your private chats? No idea what you meant…

True. That post is stupid as fuck.

Getting a funding is not much different from getting on a contract. I wonder if Lehnberg also does this at home. When he hires a contractor to do maintenance or a project in his home. Then if they don’t show up for months he doesn’t bother and pays them again for the next period.

Sound logical right?

@johndavies24

Where you stated very concerning things like suggesting there is no accountability or need to enforce accountability for individuals receiving funds

You have my post above. Please quote me directly where I suggest this. I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve asked you before, but here goes again, stop strawmanning, it’s not constructive.

You have chosen to not clarify these alarming statements, among others. Maybe you just meant no accountability for those who get a vote on your funds? Maybe you meant no accountability for those in your private chats? No idea what you meant…

If you don’t understand my ‘alarming’ statements, try asking me politely to clarify, instead of spreading FUD and taking your usual concern trolling approach to engaging on the forums.

maybe you sound stupid comparing an open source privacy crypto project with something else…

He showed up and completing the work and he is delivering as before he did.

your toxic comments is logical?

(replying to my unaddressed post) All of these concerns @lehnberg echoed by many here, including the post immediately after, and by many in other community places as well. It isnt a strawman, you said it and I voiced concerns and you remained silent despite the severity of the concerns. You call it concern trolling, but it is concerning (and not trolling) that you guys have serious conflicts of interest, significant private conversations (which some of you have admitted that they shouldnt be private and you have made efforts to move them public), and this facade of fairness and transparency.

I replied directly to your alarming statements and was polite. I asked direct questions in my reply and while those went unaddressed, I assumed asking for clarity of your alarming comments was implied by my posts and others.

I think i do (?) understand why @lehnberg is answering for @jaspervdm but that is only a guess from my side. my referral: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0268978/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_32

I think there would not be any debat if people ( like me ) can see the actually progress back on github. In the end debating is good and enlightening, sometimes we sink away and we need to pull each other up again to refresh our minds and behavior.

@lehnberg in your next fund request add another 1000 GBP on top of your current salary. Your value for grin is underestimated and needs to be more rewarded/endorsed. ( correct me if i am wrong )

Yes.

Glad to be of help.

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You are absolutely right. I apologise to everyone in the community for not doing so. At this point the best I can do is pledge to communicate such issues in public instead of relying on a proxy, should they ever arise again (which I hope they don’t in the first place, of course). I understand that due to my actions I have damaged the trust some of the community members have put in me in the past. I don’t think anything I say right now will fix this, it is just something I hope to rebuild over time.

I understand this timing may seem suspicious, however my comeback was in progress for a while before this happened. It is not something I can prove but daniel already confirmed it above.

This was raised during the meeting yesterday as well, and I have agreed to a monthly payment. I hope this will alleviate some of the concerns.

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