Opposition to default coinswap

How will Monero compromise? it still has a tx graph, it’s by no means the most private chain, it’s just the leading privacy coin because of it’s perception.

Grin is supposed to be experimental, like a rebellious sibling. You will never see Bitcoin with confidential transactions either. Even if you could theoretically go back in time and add them from the beginning, most would still oppose.

But anyway, I doubt CoinSwap is ever shipped as the default in Grin core.

This is a mute point imo. Grin is already perceived as a privacy coin and will be a red flag for regulators looking to restrict the use of privacy coins. CoinSwap isn’t going to change it’s legality when CT are baked into the protocol and when we’re marketed as having “no addresses” with txs being routed via Tor.

We’re basically saying come at us Mfers

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I guess I’m not on the side of Grin being experimental or pushing. I’d rather see it solidify as it is.

I do think regulators might look at any optional privacy enhancements differently than base layer privacy. Bitcoin contains a lot of base layer privacy preserving functionality, but with enough public demand the regulators eventually accept those as “just the way it works”, and it’s the mixers or ehancements that draw their attention. I think there is a particular hazard in enticing or encouraging naive users to take part in enhancement functions.

Not that any of these represent any big conceptual disagreement. We’re pretty much all on the same page here aside from differences in stance.

It is, but i believe that should be fixed. I would say grin has a good balance of privacy, just so that whales can’t get wrench attacked, which is a must imo - i’m surprised people don’t talk about potential issues that leaked amounts bring. No addresses just means different design, other coins just generate new address every time (or will in the future), Tor doesn’t matter since that’s a wallet issue of how they handle communication. I really don’t think of grin as something rebellious, just a more secure design for people to use.

I think this is one of the best descriptions of Grin vs Bitcoin:

“I do think Bitcoin is a great store of value and see Grin as additive to Bitcoin’s strength, rather than a replacement. Perhaps think of Grin as Bitcoin’s younger, more nimble brother” - Igno

One of the first short comings of Bitcoin is the poor privacy and one of Grin’s key characteristics was always “Privacy by default”.

If you look back over Igno’s postings, he was arguably more on the experimental side than any of us. One of the main attractions to Grin vs Bitcoin was it’s experiential nature in being able to do things Bitcoin couldn’t and I think the spirit of that should be maintained to some extent.

Then does CoinSwap not matter either since it’s a wallet issue aswell?

I really don’t think of privacy as something rebellious. It’s a human right. This is the narrative we should be pushing imo.

wallet issue was not the best choice of words by me, one is a way to exchange messages between two parties creating the transaction, another one is to increase privacy. I’m still unsure whether perfect privacy is desirable, it’s hard to know whether it would bring more good or bad things. I understand the “everyone should have it” argument, but that’s in theory, in practice some people might just abuse what privacy gives you and create chaos which would in turn make the world a worse place to live in, even if you get better privacy. That’s why i say that grin has just good enough privacy. And i believe with time people will understand that you need blinded amounts

Is using Tor to route txs still not a privacy enhancement? There is no such thing as perfect privacy, especially when you have a tx graph, so Grin is never going to achieve that.

Some people abuse using fiat currency now, so I don’t see how creating a digital version of it is going to create more chaos in the world. Nor do I think what people use a currency for should be our concern.

The most damaging things to society are alcohol and cigarettes. Which anyone of age in most countries are already free to purchase.

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The way tor is used now is to increase privacy, but of an off-chain action - i doubt anyone will ever say that’s a bad thing. Perfect privacy means that nobody can trace anything and is possible in theory imo. There is no guarantee grin will forever have tx graph. It’s probably a lot harder to do bad stuff with cash than with crypto that has perfect privacy (not impossible though). If people are killing other people easily with a currency then i believe that should be our concern. I agree that alcohol and cigarettes are awful, but they only harm the consumers - so you’re safe as long as you decide not to use them.

It would still be optional, even if enabled by default.