List of Grin problems and their solutions - Open Discussion + Cool Website to compare Grin inflation

It’s also important to understand that in majority of cases, public amounts can expose the sender’s change address. This is because you can guess which is the change output from:

  1. Decimal numbers
  2. The difference in amounts e.g. if you have two outputs one with 10 BTC and the other with 0.1 BTC, you can pretty much guess what’s the change
  3. By checking if amount * exchange_rate at the time the transaction arrived at the mempool produces a round number e.g. $100

Now try coloring the graph with this information. You can color all the sender change outputs chain and the receiver’s output becomes a “sender’s” chain which can also be colored when they start spending it. You can basically do a very smart guess of which chains of addresses are from the same user even when you never reuse the address.

And there are probably some more variants how to use the amount to uncover other stuff.

In short, blinding the amounts helps blind the identities/addresses.

7 Likes

If this is enough to send you to prison, it doesn’t matter that it’s less revealing than something else. It is revealing to an extent sufficient enough to have the worst consequence. Likewise, if every WhatsApp message you send is being funneled through Zucc’s decrypter, encrypt(secret) and secret are in this same regard equally unsafe, notwithstanding the fact that secret on paper is strictly less private than encrypt(secret) (or even rot13(secret)).

1 Like

Well that is not the case here, since the amounts are hidden, I would prefer to say:
encrypt(invisible(secret)) :wink:
The problem with Bitcoins transaction graph is that for many transactions the IP and as such the location is known and publicly available, which is a major leak. Being associated to transactions of which the amount is know and the IP is known is not very private.
In the case of Grin, even if my transactions are linked, the only way to have any idea of the amount would be from an endpoint like an exchange, e.g. If a rich user would have a transaction linked to my wallet, only the exchange would know that it is from a rich user. Furthermore they would have a hard time knowing if I paid or received a transaction from that user. Now it could be he bought me or I bought him a cup of coffee or that he donated a million worth in Grin. In either case, his and my identity are not public knowledge and are only available through exchanges to our direct wallet, anything from there is unknown. In case of mined Grin, as long as I do not directly sell to an exchange my identity is unknown. In summary, the information leaked is not that interesting.

To give another example: Buying groceries at a shop
Lets say my identity and a shops identity are known to an exchange.
For Bitcoin, probably my IP and wallet would be known and through the amount I spend, in theory it would be possible to guess what I bought by brute-forcing the combinations of prices of products in the supermarket should equal my spending (Sudoku algorithm also used to break non-equal coinjoins).
In the case of Grin, the amount is not known and an exchange would only be able to known you identity.

The same goes here. Using Grin, only a exchange might know your and the shops identity. Then if you buy something it not easy to deduce whether you bought at the shop or the shop bought something from you. Since the amount is unknown, it would be impossible to know you bought the record from Tchaikovsky and not another record.

So what can be deduced from transaction in Grin?
At best, assuming you bought your Grin at an exchange, your association to other parties that are known at an exchange are known.
Also the timing of your transactions is an information leak. For example, if you buy at a shop, each time at the beginning of the month. It might be deduced you are buying a monthly magazine. If you would receive each time at the end of the month a transaction, it could be speculated you receive your wage/payment in Grin.
In all of the above cases, it is a whole lot of work to make some guesses that cannot be substantiated without doing physical forensics, e.g. asking the shop owner for camera footage. Hiding the transaction amount and hiding directional (could be improved, e.g. by sharing transaction fees) is therefore a major privacy gain.

Should we then be content with the privacy we have? No, I fully agree that we should continue improving, privacy is a goal never fully obtained. With the above examples I just want to illustrated the major benefits of not having addresses, not having an IP leaked and most importantly, having transaction amounts blinded. So yes, hiding transaction amounts is a major privacy gain since that would typically be something that smart algorithms could use to get information about you.

2 Likes

I never understood why people always link cryptocurrencies with criminals. If you’ve done something bad then you deserve to go to prison. If cryptocurrency enables people to do such things and not be punished for them then that’s one of its cons not pros

2 Likes

This is also a reason why I am not in favor of perfect privacy, it attracts criminals. What is more important for me is the scaling and cost of breaking privacy. If it would take law enforcement ten to a hundred thousand dollars, a specialist team with the right software to figure out that I bough a cup of coffee at the local coffee corner, I would be fine with them having the ability to trade that much work and money for that information.
Now this might be an unacceptable privacy leak for a drug lord while for me, I just want to be able to buy a coffee or beer using Grin in relative anonymity, meaning that “Privacy preserving”, is good enough, especially since it comes with all the other great benefits of Grin. I mean, running a full node on my mobile phone…anyone else able to do that for another cryptocurrency?

3 Likes

I think transaction graph can let someone assume an upper limit for the transaction amount. Because unless there is an inflation bug, transaction amount can not be higher than the sum of coinbase transactions in the transaction graph. This could also used for checking plausibility to detect inflation bugs. Right?

For me one problem in grin is the lack of a unique definition what grin is. For sound money I need such a kind of definition. I need to know ‘today’, how I can identify and verify grin in a view decades. There might be some forks, reorgs or even restarts. I can not make a sound contract without a sound definition. And I want to have a definition that is shared by a big community, not just a definition I made on my own.

2 Likes

As a conclusion grin is partially private but it comes at a cost (interactive tx)
Grin has many advantages like having a smaller bc size but if you really need privacy use monero or zcash.
Grin essentially hides the amounts but one can still know where you’re spending your grin.

That being said monero and zcash also have problems of their own so to have the best of both worlds we are counting on you devs to make grin as private as monero !

Is that something we can expect ?

My conclusion is that it comes with an advantage (itx) :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t think that the privacy of scaling coins will soon catch up with the privacy of non-scaling coins. I also think that coins with perfect privacy have a very low probability of ever being used globally for buying houses, cars etc. And as stated before I’m not sure perfect privacy is desirable

1 Like

Privacy is a right to which every person is entitled. Privacy rights protect the public from unlawful and unnecessary government surveillance and bad actors. We must never give up on making Grin as privacy-preserving as possible.

Grin has 99 problems but a lack of unique definition ain’t one. Grin is a privacy-preserving digital currency built openly by people distributed all over the world. Grin is not another commercial project. It is built by a community for the community. It has no CEO and no investors. Grin owes nothing to any government, state or company.

5 Likes

Well summarized… :facepunch:

1 Like

For me that definition is not satisfactory, because it doesn’t help out to Identify grin, which I need for my use case as sound money. If I still try to do something with that definition, I wonder what no ‘no investors’ mean. What If I find someone pretending to invest?

I agree with that in theory, in practice however it’s possible the world would be a worse place to live in than it is now

to be a privacy-preserving digital currency means that Grin is committed to protect users privacy.
“built by a community for the community” means that Grin is a community effort.
“no investors” means that Grin doesn’t have to respond for a particular pressure.

I invite you to take a look into Zcash and their Regulation Compliance. They are a private company with VC investors, VCs invest in companies because they want profit, so in this case profit is over all principles. Let me give you some cites:

Zcash has re-used the Bitcoin protocol for its t-addresses and transparent transactions, making it simple and straightforward to add support for Zcash to existing transaction monitoring systems

This allows the VASP to detect transaction patterns that do not match that customer’s expected behaviour, and investigate further to determine whether the unexpected behaviour is suspicious.

On occasion, it may be necessary to share shielded transaction information with third parties. The Zcash protocol has been designed to support two features that enable the disclosure of shielded transaction information.

Imagine a situation where a government tries to impose an illegal and unnecessary action upon you, which governments do on a day-to-day basis just because… what do you think it will happen when Zcash (and many other companies) has to decide between you and them? let me tell you: they’ll sell your ass off in a fraction of a microsecond.

In Grin we’re free of living not for profits but by principles.

2 Likes

Not just possible, but likely to be the case. With perfect privacy, crimes come only at the cost of money because there’s no way to trace the criminal. This favors the rich to get control over others. Now add in the 3d printers, drones and politics and use your imagination to see the shitshow that can happen in such a setting. I’m clearly not against improving privacy as I’ve tried to help Grin improve that, but people are always enumerating exclusively the good side of it. I think living without any controls is not the society’s optimum, the sweet spot is likely somewhere in between, but I don’t know what that is.

1 Like

Thank you for explanation. I think I got an Idea of what the desire of ‘no investors’ is, but also that this formulation has a bias. For me a definition is needed for the coin, not for the project.

For these people there is nothing in between. Let me share with you what these people think: https://twitter.com/McGuinnessEU/status/1417494008037879819

Cryptocurrency is one of the newest ways to launder money. Our rules will now apply to the whole of the crypto sector. We will ban anonymous crypto wallets and make sure that crypto-asset transfers are traceable.

And equally the whole financial world is changing. Crypto-assets are now common currency, if you like, but they’re anonymous. And I would refer you perhaps to the Financial Action Task Force website for a very simple graphic of how criminals corrupt the crypto-asset marketplace, and we are tackling that, and I think that is just timely that we are doing that.

Mairead McGuinness is an Irish politician, who has served as the European Commissioner for Financial Stability, Financial Services and the Capital Markets Union since October 2020. Two of her duties were:

  • Preserving and improving financial stability, protecting savers and investors and ensuring the flow of capital to where it is needed.
  • Ensuring a common approach with Member States on cryptocurrencies .

These people are no joking at all. I won’t be surprised if they declare Grin, Beam and Monero tools for criminals. They exists to protect investors, they don’t care about regular joe. Today they say that they want to protect us, they just want to chase “criminals”, but Governments are creating new criminals by writing new stupid laws and regulations everyday. Tomorrow who knows what it will be considered a criminal activity.

I don’t care if Grin attracts those who are trying to not be owned by those sociopaths.

5 Likes

Man,now you are really official CORE member.
Who says without any control? Do you believe they havent got %99 control over people?

i agree with David, why should i care if a criminal or mad man use fiat or crypto?
it is sad to even debate over this in Grin community. i am loosing hope day by day. Something smells fishy about progress.

1 Like

I know it’s hard to let go of something that showed great promise. This is going to sound harsh and probably even melodramatic.




Cut your losses. Don’t torture yourself with false hope. Your words are falling on deaf ears.

Mimblewimble and Grin started out somewhat cypherpunk-y with Jedusor, Igno, and the anonymous whale donor, but it’s all downhill from there. The technology isn’t mature yet, and the community is cucked beyond all hope, and that doesn’t just apply to core.

2 Likes

Let’s please not go down this destructive road again. I don’t speak on behalf of anyone else than myself and I am entitled to have an opinion just like you are.

Instead of constantly labeling and throwing mud at core, what if we actually protected each other because we all want the best for Grin? A change in attitude would retain and bring new talent instead of pushing it away.

2 Likes

Can you elaborate on how his opinion about perfect privacy probably not being the best for the world is connected with core? People seem to always come up with this “core problems” from nowhere.

If you have perfect privacy nobody can trace anything. That basically means nobody can control anything. That sounds very dangerous, we should try to objectively analyze what such privacy might bring us (pros and cons)

Crypto can be made way less traceable than fiat, way easier to do undesirable things with it

If you honestly think so then it only makes sense for you to forget about grin and leave