Dismantling the core team and governance structure

off-topic


Mod: off-topic

Complaints about moderation policy

Excessive moderation is one example of why the core team and governance structure is out of control. After a year of complex and convoluted moderation team efforts they still have nothing because just as the structure for discussing changes to grin is overly complex and cumbersome, so is the moderation policy.

The poor decisions of the core and governance are also entirely on topic, it is one reason why the whole thing needs to be dismantled.

Random rant?

The fact that the security lead has contributed nothing of substance to the issue that grin’s protocol cannot guarantee ownership of funds is another great example.


Mod: hiding off-topic sections

Off-topic

@lehnberg no idea where you get off moderating things that are on topic but you dont like. Even worse that you attempt to summarize what we mean. You are creating a bigger problem than you think you are fixing. Stop spending time and effort to create problems with unilateral, centralized and cumbersome policies. This is what we are trying to talk about.


Mod: Off-topic

Off-topic questions

ON TOPIC!

What is this? Why are people voices being mute? Who do you think you are?
This is very very wrong.


Mod: Off-topic

1 Like
Rant

@lehnberg gets to decide who gets funds and who’s opinion matters… Ironically, even on a thread discussing how shitty the core and governance structure is…


Mod: Rant

1 Like

Reminder:

Please stay on topic, stay constructive, refrain from name calling, labelling, and generally: Try to add value to the conversation.

I will continue to moderate this thread as I pledged to do in my original post. If you want to lament this approach, there’s now a dedicated thread in the forum where your complaints will be on-topic:

https://forum.grin.mw/t/moderation-on-the-thread-core-team-and-governance-structure/

4 Likes
Off-topic

What is all the babysitting about? Don’t you have anything more useful to do with your time?

————

Mod: off-topic

2 Likes
Off-topic response about what Joltz is or is not

@joltz is not grin’s security lead, he is a volunteer contributor who has done more for the project than 99.5% of the people here. Are you really coming at him with these accusations? He owes us nothing.

This is why the core team structure should be dismantled. Nothing good comes of it.


Mod: off-topic

Looks like it’s high time to make it clear that the “core team” only relates to the Grin Rust implementation project. And the Grin Rust implementation developers should be free to organize their governance as they want.

That’s a very naive way to look at it. It was never defined as a rust implementation team, nor is it presented this way anywhere.

I’ve read almost every document ever written and every thread ever posted. This is simply not true, and never was.

5 Likes
Response in relation to a factually incorrect claim about whether Joltz applied to his post or not

Not sure why your post was flagged. Anyway, I think the problem is that it’s perceived, as you say, that he “applied to positions of responsibility”. Our project shouldn’t have any such positions, and nothing that looks like it.


Mod: Off-topic

4 Likes
Response in relation to a factually incorrect claim about whether Joltz applied to his post or not

I think the expectations from some of the community members are ‘unadjusted’ to a decentralized setting. I don’t think he “applied” for volunteering in this role, he’s probably just the guy that has the most experience in security. People try to match a role of a security guy in a company with one in a decentralized setting and expect them to act the same. It’s a completely different situation and as people have said, he owes nothing to anyone. I don’t think it really matters who holds that title. Might be best to throw away these titles to avoid any further confusion as there will be more people joining the community and doing the same mistake. Volunteers work on things they are interested in. For anything else, there are contracts. Honestly, I would lose any interest in the replay solutions and I wouldn’t even think of investing any of my free time if I was treated in a similar way he is. We should first get better, be nicer to each other and then we can expect people investing their free time. To make it clear, this wasn’t targeted at you kurt, but rather at the situation that came from this.


Mod: Off-topic

1 Like

I never said that it was, I said it should. And rather sooner than later.

Correction of the factually incorrect claim, support for Joltz, and comment that the discussion is off-topic

This is simply wrong. He was nominated. Know your Grin history. Be precise. https://github.com/mimblewimble/grin-pm/blob/master/notes/20190702-meeting-governance.md#33-add-a-fourth-contact-to-securitymd

The suggestion that @joltz is not contributing enough to security is so outlandishly absurd that I won’t even comment on that. Having worked through a few CVEs with him by now as part of the security team, I don’t know where Grin would be today if he had not been there.

All of this is off-topic by the way, I’m going to be hiding this as soon as I finish up some other stuff.


Mod: Off-topic

1 Like
Suggestion to create a new forum thread about Joltz

@kurt - Please create a new forum thread for your thoughts about how best to turn away some of the more valuable contributors to the project.

I’m sure you can find some other individuals to discuss this further with, but it’s not on subject in this thread.


Mod: Off-topic

2 Likes

Great ideas, give more details pls

Based on some of the ideas raised in this thread, @paouky and I have submitted an RFC:

Feedback is highly encouraged (ideally) in the pull request of the RFC, or in thread here.


Summary

This governance iteration replaces the previous process that was set out in RFC#0002 with a simplified and better defined version. Specifically it:

  • defines its remit to be around the repos, projects, and communities that are centered around the /mimblewimble GitHub organization;
  • reverts the core team to the original technocratic council structure, whose sole responsibility is managing the general fund; and
  • explicitly enables individual contributors and teams to self-organize for other aspects of decision making.
4 Likes

I like it! Simple but fine. Below a few suggestions that might help improve governance as well as might help in the formation of sub-teams.

  1. Add a few long standing community members to the council so it becomes clear that council represents mw/grin as whole not only the rust repository. Whether these extra members hold keys or not is not that important.
  2. It might be helpful to find direction in the governance as well as identify sub-teams (help enthusiastic Grin contributors identify shared passions), by using questionnaires and pols, like @Mane suggested.
    -> See below for the formation of sub-team ‘Legilimency’ to handle this task.
  3. It might be usefull to allow specific causes to donate to, e.g. ‘usability’. Of course this can also be done in a very minimalistic way, by adding for example a single line to the donation page stating that donators can optionally specify specific goals they would like their donation to contribute to. This does not mean the funds will automatically be spend on this goal but it might help the council and the community to identify what is important to individual donors and to the community as a whole.

@Mane Do you want to form the ‘Legilimency’ sub-team together with me and others who are interested? The goal of this team is to peak into the mind of the community, quantify their wants, needs.


This sub-team can greatly help the community and the council to find direction, as well as help in the self organization part. E.g. identify important topics for which enough community members are enthousiastic to form a new sub-team.
2 Likes

Hi all, I like to add some suggestions to the dialog. Since governance has been extensively discussed I will leave that to the current contributors. Personally I like to zoom in on the usability of our coin economy and how it can be motivated to create more adoption. One of the bullet points Lehnberg addressed is the little enthusiasm of community members and resulting contributions. I believe this can be solved and motivated by spending some of the donations budget which is available. Imho GRIN can benefit from some “paid” jobs. We need a community manager that can network and organize. With this I mean, we need network tools that can motivate the right adoption, and these tools need to be developed. For instance, where is our turn-key eCommerce toolset? Where is my payment plugin in the WordPress repository? I want to integrate payment modules into my websites. These need to be created and David “plusplus” can not create everything. Instead of inviting developers asking for funding requests we could organize hackatons and offer prizes that value the contributions. After cool tools have been created they need to be maintained and further developed and for this we can use the funding request philosophy. But community activity like this needs to be managed. We need a catalyst-alizer, a person who has vision of what tools our ecosystem needs and who has the skills of communication and organization to pull this off. Such a Community Manager also needs to receive a form of compensation for his or her time. We need more FUN in the community instead of all the longbeard coding smartness. We need a merchandise web shop that actually works. Not one that sells dissapointment by offering items which are not on stock anymore or faulty out-of-date php errors which makes it impossible to add anything to the shopping cart at all. So I foresee and see many and numerous “jobs” and positions that need to be filled in order to get this show moving.

I am available and with my 20 years of eCommerce experience absolutely equipped to run a Community Mgr position as described above. Other candidates might be even more equipped and if so I welcome them. In the end, bottomline, I wish this project to succeed and not to just be a springboard for other coin systems.

5 Likes

Currently, on coinmarketcap and coingecko, the discord invite links are dead. There is a link to a twitter account that is suspended and a link to grin-fans.org which leads to errors.

How grin is represented for users and followers is an area where some centralization may help to lead to a more consistent (better) experience. Deadlinks and confusion around the authority of certain information sources can look dodgy for users and also make users more vulnerable to scams. A project with a fully centralized setup would probably have an easier time to keep these things up to date and streamlined.

I think that grin and any other crypto project should try to find balance between centralization where decentralization is disadvantageous from a user’s perspective and decentralization where it is advantageous. There needs to be a way to intervene if corruption occurs though.