# GRIN Community is Obsessed with Centralization **URL:** \ **Category:** Rants & Flames\ **Created:** [June 17, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043 "2021-06-17T13:56:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![david](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/david/32/660_2.png) [@david](https://forum.grin.mw/u/david)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/21 "2021-06-17T23:55:54Z")
> [@dog](#): > > Attracting the wrong users to GRIN is the wrong thing to do. Grin is meant for everyone. There aren’t any “wrong users.” ---
**Author:** ![dog](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/dog/32/2230_2.png) [@dog](https://forum.grin.mw/u/dog)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 12:08am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/22 "2021-06-18T00:08:40Z")
Sorry, I meant the GRIN community. There’s a big difference. There are “wrong users” for the GRIN community. If there weren’t, we’d have no CoC. If you see nothing wrong with the centralized services and what they do, if you think the elite that silence people who disagree with them aren’t the wrong people, if you see nothing wrong with the centralized services’ ops and admins banning communities they disagree with, yeah I guess your right. ---
**Author:** ![david](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/david/32/660_2.png) [@david](https://forum.grin.mw/u/david)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 1:09am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/23 "2021-06-18T01:09:32Z")
I see lots wrong with banning communities and free speech. It’s not something we’ve experienced in Grin, but we could. Thankfully, we have multiple communities to fall back on, and adding another, like Matrix, is good for the community. But I think getting rid of active communities would be a net loss. ---
**Author:** ![renzokuken](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/renzokuken/32/3563_2.png) [@renzokuken](https://forum.grin.mw/u/renzokuken)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 2:09am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/24 "2021-06-18T02:09:57Z")
I personally believe that every platform has a potential unique purpose. I think it is good to be present more or less everywhere for one reason: there are users everywhere and not everyone will be willing to “convert” to a particular platform to discover ツ. On the other hand, for those who are in, especially for a long time, it would be good to slowly transition to more decentralized platforms. I’m not saying there is an important reason to do so right now. Some things one should do just to stand up for own principles, which is why from now on you can also reach me on [https://grincoin.chat](https://grincoin.chat) as well! ---
**Author:** ![dog](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/dog/32/2230_2.png) [@dog](https://forum.grin.mw/u/dog)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 2:34am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/25 "2021-06-18T02:34:09Z")
I can agree with this. I’m sorry if I espoused any hostility. I agree with you at this point. Apologies for the argumentatives. I was just trying to “rant & flame” and lost sight of the overall goal of our communities. That’s all from me – I can be reached @arthur@grincoin.chat if you want to join matrix. ---
**Author:** ![grn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/grn/32/3722_2.png) [@grn](https://forum.grin.mw/u/grn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 3:07am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/26 "2021-06-18T03:07:51Z")
> [@david](#): > > I think Telegram is a fine choice I think Telegram is a choice that blocks many users from joining a community. Mainly those who cannot or don’t want to provide their phone number, those who cannot or don’t want to accept the terms of service from Telegram FZ-LLC (analytics, data storage and processing, acceptable content) and also those who are banned by Telegram FZ-LLC or live in a country that bans Telegram. E2ee only on mobile, so arguably also those who cannot or don’t want to install the app. Telegram is not an open platform, just because there are many people left who are able to join. > [@renzokuken](#): > > I personally believe that every platform has a potential unique purpose. I think it is good to be present more or less everywhere for one reason: there are users everywhere and not everyone will be willing to “convert” to a particular platform to discover ツ. If people use platforms like Tik Tok, Twitter and Facebook to promote Grin, I agree, more power to them, it helps the project. I created a Twitter account that I wanted to use for Grin and got instabanned, before I even wrote my first tweet… I see the problem with using these platforms for “official” things like governance, and developer communication. These are integral parts of the project and the platform for these should be chosen wisely. Imagine if your government picked Facebook for official communication, announcements and filing of tax reports. There is no point for a citizen who does not like Facebook to create an alternative government chanel in the fediverse and there is no point in creating an alternative governance chanel for Grin, if the Grin council members do not move there. Governance on Keybase is the most severe in my opinion. It requires users to install software by Zoom (no webapp). There is no public backup of the chat log and It is not really easy to create one. I am convinced that Zoom **will** pull the plug sooner or later for Keybase. I understand that at the time the community was created, the situation was different, but it has changed in the meantime. Telegram would not be a good replacement for the reasons that I listed above. ---
**Author:** ![david](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/david/32/660_2.png) [@david](https://forum.grin.mw/u/david)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 3:29am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/27 "2021-06-18T03:29:44Z")
> [@grn](#): > > Telegram is not an open platform, just because there are many people left who are able to join. Yep, I totally agree. Thankfully, we’ve got multiple to choose from (discord, keybase, and now matrix), with bridges between a few of them! > [@grn](#): > > I see the problem with using these platforms for “official” things like governance, and developer communication. I think the bigger danger would be having “official” communication channels at all. We had our last-ever scheduled governance meeting last week, and dev communication occurs in a number of places (keybase, github, forum, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![grn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/grn/32/3722_2.png) [@grn](https://forum.grin.mw/u/grn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 3:33am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/28 "2021-06-18T03:33:36Z")
> [@david](#): > > I think the bigger danger would be having “official” communication channels at all. We had our last-ever scheduled governance meeting last week, and dev communication occurs in a number of places (keybase, github, forum, etc.). As I understand, there are still councils that decide what to do with the fund and the repos. Kind of “official” to me, no matter how it is called. ---
**Author:** ![david](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/david/32/660_2.png) [@david](https://forum.grin.mw/u/david)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/29 "2021-06-18T03:39:31Z")
As of [Council evolution + clarification](https://forum.grin.mw/t/council-evolution-clarification/9021), they no longer meet over keybase. Decisions are made via the forum. The fund has always been managed by an unofficial group of contributors. There is nothing “official” about it. ---
**Author:** ![grn](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/grn/32/3722_2.png) [@grn](https://forum.grin.mw/u/grn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 3:44am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/30 "2021-06-18T03:44:21Z")
Forum is better than keybase, because it is openly accessible, as everything related to governance (_official_ or _unofficial_) should be. 👍 ---
**Author:** ![oryhp](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/oryhp/32/2923_2.png) [@oryhp](https://forum.grin.mw/u/oryhp)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 7:10am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/31 "2021-06-18T07:10:53Z")
I appreciate your enthusiasm for anti censorship platforms @dog . I’ll be on the matrix server if we get one. ---
**Author:** ![minexpert](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/minexpert/32/2656_2.png) [@minexpert](https://forum.grin.mw/u/minexpert)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/32 "2021-06-18T18:52:31Z")
I’ve read the whole topic. I agree with @dog. We need to use decentralized channels. This will protect us from being banned in the future. It saves from proofs about what is spoken. It is more comfortable and more free. It also suits the grin. Because we are the most decentralized, most independent project in cryptocurrencies and i think, our community is like this too. Lastly, it also will make us different. Therefore, we can promote a decentralized platform without closing existing channels in the first place. In time, once we’re all there, we can shut down other platforms. ---
**Author:** ![Shobji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@Shobji](https://forum.grin.mw/u/Shobji)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2021, 5:49am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/33 "2021-06-19T05:49:07Z")
Some one has already created a account on Feb 20 ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/uploads/grin/original/2X/6/64fbf39f126ba62414d659c8c4b98eac372bb2ed.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![hueso](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/hueso/32/3864_2.png) [@hueso](https://forum.grin.mw/u/hueso)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/34 "2021-06-25T19:41:11Z")
I fully agree with @dog here. GRIN is about decentralization, in order for it to be coherent with it’s mission it must not rely on centralized services that require users to register with a phone number. Those are not welcoming to anonymous folks like Igno or Satoshi. Discord can be replaced with rocket.chat. Telegram can be replaced with XMPP, see [this offering](https://cheogram.com/freedomware-muc/) for a free hosting. ---
**Author:** ![dog](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/dog/32/2230_2.png) [@dog](https://forum.grin.mw/u/dog)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/36 "2021-06-26T21:22:21Z")
> [@Grundkurs](#): > > Doing this you would basically close 3 communication-channels to have 1 in the future. How is this a “decentralized” move? Because you are moving from a centralized service to a decentralized service. Open 3 matrix servers and/or add 1 XMPP. Put different people in charge. If everyone is following Grin’s CoC there’s no issue. As far as the precious **idle users** in Telegram, Discord and Keybase, you’re right, I’m sure we _definitely_ need them and that arbitrary number of users (not actual user engagement) make all the difference I’m sure 🙄 I left the discord server after getting the feeling that the matrix-discord bridge was not working _intentionally_ (my paranoid schizophrenia kicked in) and after my messages started being deleted by a bot. I’ll be deleting my discord account in the next couple of hours and transfering the discord-server for [slatepacks.com](http://slatepacks.com) to my business partner. Anyway - I’ve said my piece. Have fun on those centralized services!! PS: Discord is SPYWARE: [Discord — Spyware Watchdog](https://spyware.neocities.org/articles/discord.html) ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/uploads/grin/original/2X/c/ccf0bcf2c88228fe43c45ea6a78988d52b9d3c5a.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Grumpy](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/grumpy/32/6264_2.png) [@Grumpy](https://forum.grin.mw/u/Grumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 4:51am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/37 "2021-06-28T04:51:21Z")
b…but I wanna buy the bad no-no freedom things. ---
**Author:** ![davidtavarez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3ab097/32.png) [@davidtavarez](https://forum.grin.mw/u/davidtavarez)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2021, 7:52am UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/38 "2021-06-28T07:52:36Z")
> **[AWS welcomes Wickr to the team | Amazon Web Services](https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/security/aws-welcomes-wickr-to-the-team/)** > > We’re excited to share that AWS has acquired Wickr, an innovative company that has developed the industry’s most secure, end-to-end encrypted, communication technology. With Wickr, customers and partners benefit from advanced security features not... ---
**Author:** ![dog](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/user_avatar/forum.grin.mw/dog/32/2230_2.png) [@dog](https://forum.grin.mw/u/dog)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043/39 "2021-11-23T16:56:30Z")
The pendulum is swinging and will hit our community soon enough. Telegram: ![image](https://canada1.discourse-cdn.com/flex036/uploads/grin/original/2X/c/c716fbec932fb9d9b46e712dbc3640538ae17c6e.png) edit: this is with the APK / direct download from Telegram, this isn’t Google or Apple censoring it. [Previous page](https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-community-is-obsessed-with-centralization/9043.md?page=1)